Understanding KEP and Book of Abraham issues

[_Tobin]

(And what's with the strange business about "damned" and "repent" literally meaning "stopped" and "change"? Not in English, they don't.)

Adamic language maybe?

I feel like I'm talking to one idiot after another on here.

Repentance in the New Testament comes from the greek word μετάνοια "metanoia" meaning a change of heart/mind or a change of conduct.

Damn comes from the Old French "damner", which derives from Latin "damnare," a derivative of the noun "damnum", which means "harm", "injury" or "loss". In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be literally stopped, or prevented in your progress.

[_Tobin]

You can claim everything is a derivative of something else. This is just another of those looney theories out there that Joseph Smith was the greatest scholar of all time and derived and distilled all this information from other sources.

Yes, it's incredibly loony to imagine that Joseph Smith borrowed from the books he was reading at the time. Seriously?

Yes, of course, because the narrative of Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham were already written by Spaulding and Joseph Smith was using his cliff notes I suppose.

So long as you will not believe or follow God or his prophets, I am certain you are damned. I don't have to pass judgement. It is just a fact of life.

I don't appreciate being told I don't believe in or follow God. You do not know that at all. Nor do you know I'm damned.

Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the gospel, as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the ordinances and priesthood of God as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. As far as I am concerned, and most Mormons would be concerned, you are damned.

I'm not the one disbelieving God's prophet or disputing his words. I value all of his words, no matter the source. That is the difference between us.

The difference between us is that you believe the Book of Abraham is God's word. I don't. I value His words. I just don't think the mess that is the Book of Abraham is part of them.

I'm sure God will appreciate your input. I can't wait to see how that goes.

[_just me]

Damn comes from the Old French "damner", which derives from Latin "damnare," a derivative of the noun "damnum", which means "harm", "injury" or "loss". In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be literally stopped, or prevented in your progress.

I think that the word is "dam" not "damn" which would be preventing progress.

[_ludwigm]

Damn comes from the Old French "damner", which derives from Latin "damnare," a derivative of the noun "damnum", which means "harm", "injury" or "loss". In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be literally stopped, or prevented in your progress.

I think that the word is "dam" not "damn" which would be preventing progress.

In this case, it was a beaver, not a panda.

[#img] http://wumocomicstrip.com/img/strip/-WM ... -05-25.gif[#/img]

[_Sethbag]

I have asked God. It's rather presumptuous of you to say I haven't or that I'm not willing to follow God. Speak for yourself, not me.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to complain about presumptuousness of others while whipping out the ultimate appeal to authority, ie: "God told me so, so there!"

[_Chap]

God is inviting you to suspend your disbelief and seek him and speak with him. Unless and until you are willing to do so, you are damned (literally stopped). This will be true in this life and the next. Even when you die, you will remain as you are - unable to believe or follow God until you give up your preconceptions, humble yourself, repent (literally change) and believe in and follow God. Now, you may view the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon as a ridiculous hoax. That is your right, but those of us that have spoken with God value them and all of God's "revealed" words.

There really are moments when Tobin goes into full-on "weird guy shouting in the street" mode.

(And what's with the strange business about "damned" and "repent" literally meaning "stopped" and "change"? Not in English, they don't.)

Adamic language maybe?

I feel like I'm talking to one idiot after another on here.

Repentance in the New Testament comes from the greek word μετάνοια "metanoia" meaning a change of heart/mind or a change of conduct.

Damn comes from the Old French "damner", which derives from Latin "damnare," a derivative of the noun "damnum", which means "harm", "injury" or "loss". In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be literally stopped, or prevented in your progress.

It is at points like this that Tobin's trolling becomes evident. He is intelligent enough to know what it means to talk about the 'literal' meaning of an English word: thus, one might say that the literal meaning of the word 'dreadful' was 'full of dread', since that is simply what the obvious elements of the word mean in English, despite the fact that its actual usage is to signify something quite bad but not necessarily causing dread, as in 'Her cooking was dreadful'.

Neither in the case of 'repent' or 'damned' is he talking about a literal meaning.

'Repent' is ultimately derived from the Latin word which also gave us 'penitence' and 'punish'. Unlike 'dreadful' it has no 'literal' meaning separate from its normal English usage meaning 'to be sorry for what one has done'. 'Repent' happens to be used in the Bible as a translation for the Greek word metanoia. 'Metanoia' in Greek does mean (literally) 'change of mind', but that is a very far cry from sloppily saying that 'repent' literally means just 'change'. It doesn't.

'Damned' is as Tobin correctly points out derived from Latin words referring to loss or punishment. Nothing to do with being 'stopped' there - certainly not in English, and not in Latin either (had he been talking about being 'arrested', the case would have been different). So in no sense is 'stopped' the literal meaning of 'damned'.

Tobin however says: 'In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be literally stopped'. Whether Tobin is right or wrong in his assertions about LDS doctrine, the word 'literally' does not belong in that sentence: he is simply mis-using it as a mere intensifier, when all he means is 'In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped' To say that a group of people believe that if you are damned you are stopped from progressing is not the same as saying that 'stopped' is the literal meaning of 'damned'.

Tobin simply can't bear to be wrong. I suppose that is what happens when you start talking to pandas.

[_Bob Loblaw]

I'm sorry, but you don't get to complain about presumptuousness of others while whipping out the ultimate appeal to authority, ie: "God told me so, so there!"

I'm not playing that card at all. The facts are on my side, regardless of any appeal to God.

[_Darth J]

Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the gospel, as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the ordinances and priesthood of God as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. As far as I am concerned, and most Mormons would be concerned, you are damned.

Tobin doesn't accept Thomas S. Monson as a prophet, seer, and revelator. Tobin doesn't accept the Bretheren's authority to dictate and interpret doctrine. So as far as most Mormons would be concerned, Tobin is damned.

And as long as we're playing Tobin's game:

Tobin doesn't accept Warren Jeffs as a prophet and does not accept Warren Jeffs' priesthood authority. So as far as most FLDS Mormons would be concerned, Tobin is damned.

Tobin doesn't accept the Pope as the vicar of Christ. Tobin doesn't accept the apostolic authority of the Roman Catholic Church and the sacraments of the Catholic Church as necessary for salvation. So as far as most Roman Catholics would be concerned, Tobin is damned.

Tobin accepts books besides the Bible as scripture and accepts (sort of) Joseph Smith as a prophet. Tobin has not confessed the real Jesus. Tobin does not accept a priesthood of believers. So as far as most evangelical Christians are concerned, Tobin is damned.

Tobin does not accept Mohammed (peace be upon him) as the prophet of Allah. Tobin does not accept the holy Koran as the word of Allah. So as far as most Muslims would be concerned, Tobin is damned.

Etc., etc., etc.

And followers of the above faiths also stand ready to guarantee that what their panda said is right, and they can't wait to see how it goes when Osiris weighs our hearts against a feather/we have to pay Charon to ferry us into the underworld/the Rapture happens/we fail to clear ourselves of the body thetans that remain after Xenu dumped his alien subjects into volcanoes on Earth/Allah looks at our Book of Deeds/etc.

[_Drifting]

Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the gospel, as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the ordinances and priesthood of God as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. As far as I am concerned, and most Mormons would be concerned, you are damned.

In which case, so are you!

[_Bob Loblaw]

Yes, of course, because the narrative of Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham were already written by Spaulding and Joseph Smith was using his cliff notes I suppose.

Do you need cliff notes when you have a book right in front of you? I don't believe Joseph Smith was that stupid. Do you?

Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the gospel, as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the ordinances and priesthood of God as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. As far as I am concerned, and most Mormons would be concerned, you are damned.

I'm not concerned about the beliefs of most Mormons, but even if I believed in the church, I would not presume to judge the state of someone else's soul.

I'm sure God will appreciate your input. I can't wait to see how that goes.

I'll bring the popcorn.