Understanding KEP and Book of Abraham issues

[_Bob Loblaw]

I did just try it, and God told me that I should start ignoring you.

Seriously, you act as if people on this board have never actually prayed before . . .

He knows we haven't prayed because we didn't get the same answer he did. Duh.

[_palerobber]

Try talking to God some time and doing what he asks, it might even surprise you.

yes, the attacks of 9/11 were indeed surprising. what will God ask someone to do next?

[_palerobber]

On the bright side, Michael Chandler made a nice profit on the sale.

this brings to mind the question, shouldn't the so-called Joseph Smith Papyri be returned to Egypt, since they were originally looted in the early 1800s by Bernardino Drovetti (French consul to Egypt and antiquities profiteer) ?

[_Tobin]

...

Your argument is the tired old critic's straw-man argument regurgitated a million times.

... Joseph Smith "supposedly" claimed to translate the papyrus which means he understood and could read Egyptian Hieroglyphics.
... BUT, the critic knows there is no evidence that Joseph Smith, or anyone from that period, understood Egyptian Hieroglyphics.
.. AND, the critic also knows that the papyrus is too recent to actually have been written by the hand of Abraham (as was claimed by Joseph Smith being the source to the Book of Abraham)

AH, well since we can understand Egyptian Hieroglyphics, all we have to do is compare what Joseph Smith translated and to no one's surprise, it becomes readily apparent that Joseph Smith could not read (or translated) Egyptian Hieroglyphics at all. And Joseph Smith was a false prophet because "supposedly" he said he could and the Book of Abraham should have been derived from the papyri and Joseph Smith must have just made it up.

However, the critic is a flim-flam man.

A Mormons should know that:
1) Joseph Smith didn't know Egyptain Hieroglyphics. He translated only by the gift and power of God.
2) That Joseph Smith was merely a man and not God's sock puppet and thereby not perfect and fully capable of mistakes.
3) Joseph Smith may not initially have had any idea what the source of the revealed translation was unless and until he asked and found out. Unforunately, the flim-flam man just assumes that Joseph Smith must have had to learn the language to translate - or that God must have told Joseph Smith what was laying before him. However, the flim-flam man has never translated by the gift and power of God (nor has anyone alive today). The flim-flam man just assumes it was all laid out before Joseph Smith and fully explained to him without the least bit if inquiry and puzzling over it by Joseph Smith. The flim-flam man really is incongruous with the accounts, but oh well.

So, where does that leave us?

The flim-flam man is going to still not believe in any revealed text by Joseph Smith, that God talks to man today, or that any man could or has been a prophet. He is also not going to ever seek and speak with God to determine the truth of whether the Book of Abraham was revealed or not.

Any Mormon, who was sought out and has a personal witness of God is going to see through the charade of the flim-flam man and realize the deceit. The flim-flam man isn't interested in the honest humble inquiry of the Mormon, who carefully seeks the answers by understanding both the facts and what God has to say about the matter. No, the flim-flam man has no interest in what God has to say at all. And in that final day, when all these things are proven true and the Lord passes judgement on the flim-flam man, the flim-flam man will be condemned for not also seeking the Lord out for the answers.

[_lulu]

and she [Lucy] read seven minutes from it as if it were English

Then in the same way she (Lucy) interpreted to us hieroglyphics from another roll.

A claim that Lucy could translate. How interesting.

[_Tobin]

It isn't hard Cicero. Try talking to God some time and doing what he asks, it might even surprise you.

I did just try it, and God told me that I should start ignoring you.

Seriously, you act as if people on this board have never actually prayed before . . .

No, prayer isn't the problem. Just no one is actually speaking with and listening to the Lord. Otherwise, they would see through all this non-sense, as I do.

[_Cicero]

And in that final day, when all these things are proven true and the Lord passes judgement on the flim-flam man, the flim-flam man will be condemned for not also seeking the Lord out for the answers.

Here is a preview of Tobin in the afterlife (he is the guy in glasses holding the clipboard). You should all consider yourselves forewarned.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/152270/abandon-all-hope

[_Themis]

No, prayer isn't the problem. Just no one is actually speaking with and listening to the Lord. Otherwise, they would see through all this non-sense, as I do.

No one but Tobin, or maybe no one but Nightlion. Then again didn't you say that you did not actually speak or listen to the Lord?

[_sock puppet]

Can a TBM posit a hypothesis for the production of the Book of Abraham text that--

• is internally consistent
• is plausible given the known historical facts
• does not throw god under the bus as somehow needing to deceive JSJr as to what was going on in the process

?

[Guest]

1) Joseph Smith didn't know Egyptain Hieroglyphics. He translated only by the gift and power of God.

So says Tobin. Problem is the evidence shows he was making it up.

2) That Joseph Smith was merely a man and not God's sock puppet and thereby not perfect and fully capable of mistakes.

I don't see anyone making the argument that Joseph is God's sock puppet. This is just a straw-man.

3) Joseph Smith may not initially have had any idea what the source of the revealed translation was unless and until he asked and found out.

Joseph identified the papyri as Abraham's record before ever coming up with any text. Of course if he is God's prophet I am sure it never occurred to him that he couldn't know of himself and then ask God, as he has claimed to do on so many other occasions. I guess Tobin knows best.

Unforunately, the flim-flam man just assumes that Joseph Smith must have had to learn the language to translate - or that God must have told Joseph Smith what was laying before him.

Critics don't assume he did learn Egyptian. That would be some TBM's, although I am sure most would think he would only need God to give the meaning of the papyri. Since Joseph makes so many claims about the papyri, before any translation of the text, I am not sure why God would be so stupid to give him something else and not tell Joseph. Dumb and Dumber.

However, the flim-flam man has never translated by the gift and power of God (nor has anyone alive today). The flim-flam man just assumes it was all laid out before Joseph Smith and fully explained to him without the least bit if inquiry and puzzling over it by Joseph Smith. The flim-flam man really is incongruous with the accounts, but oh well.

Some of us actually look at the evidence we have, instead of just making it up as we go, because it has to be true. You are still avoiding how the text is suppose to be revelation from God, but not the text explanations of the facsimiles. Is God really going to reveal a true story of Abraham knowing ful well what Joseph is asking for a translation of the papyri. He claims it from the beginning that it is from Abraham and Joseph. You think he made this up. Makes Joesph dumb, and God dumber for not telling Joseph, so as not to get it so terribly wrong.

The flim-flam man is going to still not believe in any revealed text by Joseph Smith, that God talks to man today, or that any man could or has been a prophet. He is also not going to ever seek and speak with God to determine the truth of whether the Book of Abraham was revealed or not.

Yet you say you never sought God. Maybe you shouldn't assume everyone else hasn't just because you never did. I guess it's what you want to believe.

And in that final day, when all these things are proven true and the Lord passes judgement on the flim-flam man, the flim-flam man will be condemned for not also seeking the Lord out for the answers.

So to be honest you will have to admit that you to will be condemned, since you were not seeking God for answers.