Understanding KEP and Book of Abraham issues

[_sock puppet]

Two key problems with the catalyst theory (i.e., the Book of Abraham was not a linguistic translation of ancient Egyptian writings into English text, the papyri was just a prop to get JSJr in the mood to receive revelation planted directly into his cranium without the medium of anything physical).

First, god then misled JSJr into thinking he was actually translating the papyri characters. Why would god, the author of truth, deceive his own prophet? Does this concern have LIAR written all over god?

Second, god littered the situation with the irrelevant papyri that does not translate into the Book of Abraham text, giving people evidence and a reason against possibly accepting this direct revelation upon which much of LDS doctrine is based.

'Silly god, truth is for reasonable people.'

[_Fence Sitter]

Then in the same way she (Lucy) interpreted to us hieroglyphics from another roll

A claim that Lucy could translate. How interesting.

I suspect that Lucy had a routine that she would preform for people that were there to see the scroll and that the words she pretended to read were memorized/paraphrased from accounts that were written and or she had heard from other people.The accounts of her tour seem fairly consistent.

What is interesting is that she pretended to read from those areas of the Hor scroll that are now missing. I have yet to see an apologetic account that uses this as evidence that the Book of Abraham is from the missing portions of the Hor scroll. Of course the response would be that she had no idea what she was actually reading and if you take into account the rest of her claims it hardly seems plausible, but still...

[_son of Ishmael]

Two key problems with the catalyst theory (i.e., the Book of Abraham was not a linguistic translation of ancient Egyptian writings into English text, the papyri was just a prop to get JSJr in the mood to receive revelation planted directly into his cranium without the medium of anything physical).

First, god then misled JSJr into thinking he was actually translating the papyri characters. Why would god, the author of truth, deceive his own prophet? Does this concern have LIAR written all over god?

Second, god littered the situation with the irrelevant papyri that does not translate into the Book of Abraham text, giving people evidence and a reason against possibly accepting this direct revelation upon which much of LDS doctrine is based.

'Silly god, truth is for reasonable people.'

The main problem with the catalyst theory (besides the fact that it is total BS) is that it is not the official position of the church. The Church leadership is always spouting off about the need to have the right authority to speak about official church doctrine so it doesn't matter what some self appointed apologist says. Until someone from the COB in authority gets up and says something different, the official church position is that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from the papyri and the facsimiles say exactly what Joseph Smith said they do and all of the trained Egyptologists are just plain wrong.

[_sock puppet]

Until someone from the COB in authority gets up and says something different, the official church position is that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from the papyri and the facsimiles say exactly what Joseph Smith said they do and all of the trained Egyptologists are just plain wrong.

Good point.

Now TBMs, which is it? Are the FP/12 right, do the Egyptian characters on the papyri translate into the Book of Abraham text? Or are the FP/12 just full of crap?

Remember, Jesus would rather that you are hot or cold, he would spew you out of his mouth if you are luke warm.

This day, declare boldly your blind following of the FP/12 or that you think with your mind.

[_Fence Sitter]

More on the missing scroll theory & the length of the missing scroll.

As has been already mentioned, the canonized version of the Book of Abraham translation is only partially complete. There are numerous references to significant portions left to translate or whose translations had been completed or lost. Oliver Cowdery expected the completed translation to fill volumes. In 1843 Joseph Smith promised to furnish further extracts from the Book of Abraham beyond what we have now, and there are several involved descriptions of those future (lost?) translations from people like Anson Call, William West, Sarah Leavitt, William Clayton and William Appleby.

If the Book of Abraham was written in hieratic characters by the same scribe and on an extension of the same scroll it would take around 16'-0' (511 cm) more of scroll to do so. (See Cook & Smith "The Original Length of the Scroll of Hor".) Allowing for about 2'-6" of extant pieces results in a minimum scroll length of 18'-6" just to write the current text of The Book of Abraham,The Breathing Permit of Hor and the 2 facsimiles. We haven't begun to factor in how much more papyri would be needed to include the unplublished references mentioned above. So now we have a papyri roll that by any reasonable standard must exceed 25'-0" to contain all the extant pieces, all the current Book of Abraham and all there other references (excluding Oliver Cowdery's) and it must fit within the diameter defined by the length of the first winding. The length of the first winding is around 4 1/4" so the diameter is about 1 1/3". The question becomes, is it even possible to roll up a 25'-0" piece of papyri into a 1 1/3" diameter roll?

[_Tobin]

Until someone from the COB in authority gets up and says something different, the official church position is that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham from the papyri and the facsimiles say exactly what Joseph Smith said they do and all of the trained Egyptologists are just plain wrong.

Good point.

Now TBMs, which is it? Are the FP/12 right, do the Egyptian characters on the papyri translate into the Book of Abraham text? Or are the FP/12 just full of s***?

Remember, Jesus would rather that you are hot or cold, he would spew you out of his mouth if you are luke warm.

This day, declare boldly your blind following of the FP/12 or that you think with your mind.

I'm not a TBM and believe the truth is more important than what the FP/12 say it is. If you can get your "supposed" TBM to answer your question, let me know.

I've outlined a way that any TBM (or Mormon) should deal with this. They should recognize that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. He revealed the Book of Abraham. The he was human and made mistakes in his initial views of the papyrus. That he was unable to read Egyptian Hieroglyphics and the facts back that up. That there is no reason that the Egyptians (pagans) would preserve a tale about Abraham or dieties other than their own in the first place and that the Book of Abraham MUST come from the original writings of Abraham and not these corrupted copies in the papyrus.

I absolutely understand that "critics" of Mormonism aren't going to believe any of that. But, they don't believe that God revealed the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham or talked with Joseph Smith in the first place. Nor do they seek God and to speak with God about this matter and come to a correct understanding of what happened. So, as far as any Mormon should be concerned, they should understand the facts but also rely on the Lord for the right way to view this matter and not follow after the foolish and misleading understanding of men.

[_Bob Loblaw]

I'll bet God is happy that Tobin is around to make Him look ridiculous.

[_Drifting]

I've outlined a way that any TBM (or Mormon) should deal with this. They should recognize that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. He revealed the Book of Abraham. The he was human and made mistakes in his initial views of the papyrus. That he was unable to read Egyptian Hieroglyphics and the facts back that up. That there is no reason that the Egyptians (pagans) would preserve a tale about Abraham or dieties other than their own in the first place and that the Book of Abraham MUST come from the original writings of Abraham and not these corrupted copies in the papyrus.

How can Mormon's believe Joseph was a Prophet of God when his divinely appointed translation abilities are clearly non existent?

[Guest]

I absolutely understand that "critics" of Mormonism aren't going to believe any of that. But, they don't believe that God revealed the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham or talked with Joseph Smith in the first place.

Tobin, all through out this thread you keep using the term "revealed". that may be an accurate term in the general sense of anything that god helps bring to light could be said to have been "revealed". but when discussing more narrowly the various canonized writings of Joseph Smith, it seems to me you use this term to deliberately muddy the water.

some of the canon was given by revelation and some by translation. and from the way the term "translation" is used in the D&C, it's clear that we're talking about the common everyday sense of the word, only with the ability to perform provided by a gift from God (i.e. magic) rather than by secular training. in the D&C there is zero indication that by "translation" what is really meant is "revelation while meditating upon a prop which we tell everyone is the authentical original even though it's not."

so could you explain your fondness for using the term "revealed" when talking about something that the D&C says was "translated"?

[_Bob Loblaw]

but when discussing more narrowly the various canonized writings of Joseph Smith, it seems to me you use this term to deliberately muddy the water.

Tobin muddy the waters? Perish the thought!

so could you explain your fondness for using the term "revealed" when talking about something that the D&C says was "translated"?

Tobin apparently believes he knows more about the Book of Abraham than Joseph Smith ever did because Tobin wasn't fooled into believing Joseph Smith could translate Egyptian. In all seriousness, people like Tobin are the kind of people who end up starting their own church a la Nightion and condemn everyone else for not seeing the world the way they do. If they have a violent streak, watch out.