why me wrote: I would hate to read the biographies of the apostles of Christ before they became apostles. Or Paul's biography before he bacame Paul. Not good.
The future is just echoes of history. the future is history reversed.
humans seen patterns in chaos and claim divine providence.
God blesses the optimist. Curses the pessimist and Hates the Realist - How just is that?
can there be divine intervention without predestination?
I like the "missing" beatitude from the Sermon on the Mount, and don't understand why Joseph Smith didn't restore it:
Blessed is the pessimist, for he expects little and thus is seldom disappointed.
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
why me wrote:The more I know about Joseph Smith, the more I like him. Yes, he was flawed as all human beings are. Why should he be any different. But a guy who only lived to be 38, he accomplished much in that short time. And from 1834 to 1844, in those ten years he 'moved mountains'
Thanks, Why Me! You've really helped me out here. I've always wanted to have sex with dozens of other women beside my legal and lawful wife, but I've been held back by that, oh, chastity and faithfullness to my wife thing. But you correctly ask why Joseph should have been any different from the rest of us. Well, the corollary to that is why should we be any different from Joseph. So I guess it's OK if I follow Joseph's example and start convincing women, including married women, to have sex with me behind my wife's back. And I'm perfectly Justified by Joseph's complex and flawed example in lying to the LDS church members if they catch wind of my doings and confront me on it, and also lie to my wife. Wouldn't you agree?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Nightlion wrote:Your loss because you did not savor that which he did accomplish and neither do the Mormons and they never will get it right. PUNKS everyone.
What did Joseph actually accomplish?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
why me wrote:The more I know about Joseph Smith, the more I like him. Yes, he was flawed as all human beings are. Why should he be any different. But a guy who only lived to be 38, he accomplished much in that short time. And from 1834 to 1844, in those ten years he 'moved mountains'
Thanks, Why Me! You've really helped me out here. I've always wanted to have sex with dozens of other women beside my legal and lawful wife, but I've been held back by that, oh, chastity and faithfullness to my wife thing. But you correctly ask why Joseph should have been any different from the rest of us. Well, the corollary to that is why should we be any different from Joseph. So I guess it's OK if I follow Joseph's example and start convincing women, including married women, to have sex with me behind my wife's back. And I'm perfectly Justified by Joseph's complex and flawed example in lying to the LDS church members if they catch wind of my doings and confront me on it, and also lie to my wife. Wouldn't you agree?
I really think you also need to consider the possibility of starting a bank and swindling lots of people out of their money. That's always a nice little earner.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Drifting wrote:What did Joseph actually accomplish?
According to why me, Joseph "moved mountains" on at least one occasion, though we don't have any corroboration from the wives.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Aristotle Smith wrote:Also, if you are still going to believe he was a prophet, you can't hide behind the "Joseph Smith was a complex and flawed human being" idea, it's just too vague. You have to identify exactly what he did that was evil and condemn it as such.
Exactly. When a critic points out Joseph's sexual escapades and a believer responds with "well Joseph was a flawed and complex human being", they are implicitly saying that Joseph's sexual escapades were not in fact commanded by God, but resulted from Joseph Smith's own "flawed" decisions. If any other "flawed" individual did what Joseph did, that believer would have no problem labeling it adultery.
For all the believers who have admitted that Joseph was "complex" and "flawed", I have not yet seen a believer go that logical next step and call him an adulterer, a manipulator, or a man who abused his position of trust over others to get what he wanted for himself. They think that some hand-waving, smoke-blowing "complex and flawed" generalization obviates any closer scrutiny, so while they think they are being honest and realistic admitting to his flaws, in reality they are not taking what Joseph actually did seriously at all. They're sweeping it all under the rug.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Stormy Waters wrote:The post bothered me a bit because I don't think she addresses the problems in any meaningful way....
Here's the real question it raises: what does it mean for the church to be true? Does whether or not it is "true" really matter?
The takeaway I got from her story is that she finds deep personal satisfaction in participating in the Church, so she continues to do so. Whether or not Smith's antics implicate him as a fraud just doesn't enter into the equation.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
Drifting wrote:What did Joseph actually accomplish?
According to why me, Joseph "moved mountains" on at least one occasion, though we don't have any corroboration from the wives.
He founded a church. He organized a church. He revolutionized christianity, He built cities and designed cities. He ran for president. He was a leader. He was a general. And he died for his beliefs. All before the age of 39. And he brought forth new scripture. And he found 11 men to testify to the truthfulness of their experience who never backed down.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote:He founded a church. He organized a church. He revolutionized christianity, He built cities and designed cities. He ran for president. He was a leader. He was a general. And he died for his beliefs. All before the age of 39. And he brought forth new scripture. And he found 11 men to testify to the truthfulness of their experience who never backed down.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Stormy Waters wrote:The post bothered me a bit because I don't think she addresses the problems in any meaningful way....
Here's the real question it raises: what does it mean for the church to be true? Does whether or not it is "true" really matter?
The takeaway I got from her story is that she finds deep personal satisfaction in participating in the Church, so she continues to do so. Whether or not Smith's antics implicate him as a fraud just doesn't enter into the equation.
If she can believe that way... I don't care. But she seems to be advocating this style of 'well Joseph wasn't perfect' which doesn't deal with anything. I wonder, when her congregation sings Praise to the Man does she sing along?
Last edited by _Stormy Waters on Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.