How do you deal with the real history on Joseph Smith?

[_GR33N]

The more I know about Joseph Smith, the more I like him. Yes, he was flawed as all human beings are. Why should he be any different. But a guy who only lived to be 38, he accomplished much in that short time. And from 1834 to 1844, in those ten years he 'moved mountains'

I agree why me, the more I learn about Joseph Smith the more I am in awe of him. His human flaws did not include the polygamous lies and distortions that are so prevalent on this board in my opinion. He did have shortcomings such as a quick temper etc and yet on the whole he did accomplish many great things in his short time on the earth.

[Guest]

He founded a church. He organized a church. He revolutionized christianity, He built cities and designed cities. He ran for president. He was a leader. He was a general. And he died for his beliefs. All before the age of 39. And he brought forth new scripture. And he found 11 men to testify to the truthfulness of their experience who never backed down.

He founded a church. He organized a church.

True, but the size of and influence of Mormonism today is due to much more than just Joseph Smith (see DrW's comments above on isolation, which I wholeheartedly agree with . . . the Church also might not even exist today if Wilford Woodruff had made a different decision in 1890, and it definitely would not have survived if later leaders had been as greedy as Brigham Young).

He revolutionized christianity,

Ehh, what?

He built cities and designed cities.

Hmm, what I see in the D&C in many places is God telling people other than Joseph to build and pay for things. God even revealed stock prices!

He ran for president. He was a leader. He was a general

So what? All kinds of kooks run for president during every cycle. What that event says to me is that by the end Joseph was truly becoming a megalomaniac. The picture of Joseph in his Nauvoo Legion uniform holding the sword creeps the hell out of me.

And he died for his beliefs.

Do you really want to go there, especially just one day after the anniversary of 9/11?

And he brought forth new scripture.

That he did, and I will fully admit that producing the Book of Mormon at his age is indeed a prodigious feat that I cannot fully explain. No one should seriously question whether or not Joseph accomplished anything. He did much more in a short life than the vast majority of us could ever dream of doing, but that fact alone does not make him immune to criticism (or allow someone to just wave away his faults by saying he was flawed).

[_DarkHelmet]

He founded a church. He organized a church.

So did L. Ron hubbard

He revolutionized christianity.

So did David Koresh

, He built cities and designed cities.

Like Warren Jeffs

He ran for president.

Anyone can run for President.

He was a leader.

Like Warren Jeffs

He was a general.

He was not only a General. He was a King. I'm a King too. I'm also a General. See how easy that is.

And he died for his beliefs. All before the age of 39.

David Koresh died before the age of 34, so that makes him 5 better than Joseph Smith.

And he brought forth new scripture.

Like David Koresh.

And he found 11 men to testify to the truthfulness of their experience who never backed down.

If insider testimonials can convince you, you're going to fall for a lot of scams.

[Guest]

He founded a church. He organized a church. He revolutionized christianity, He built cities and designed cities. He ran for president. He was a leader. He was a general. And he died for his beliefs. All before the age of 39. And he brought forth new scripture. And he found 11 men to testify to the truthfulness of their experience who never backed down.

And he did it all by himself, with his own bare hands, with his own money that he worked hard for all his life, all "because he had the faith to pray vocally for the first time at 14 YEARS OLD."

He never unjustifiably, lied, deceived, misled, tricked, duped, con'd, harmed, murdered or committed adultery with anyone... Ever!

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer. <<<< Questionable, 2 names of Jesus, no mention of the Boss then?
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him, and nations revere. <<<< Questionable, CFR?


Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! <<<< Questionable, ascension? like Moses or Enoch? Heaven? not if the church condemns his actions at some time in the future.
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain. <<<< Questionable, we shall see if no unhallowed hand stops the work.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; <<<< Questionable, what's the plan?
Death cannot conquer the hero again. <<<< Questionable, nonsense, hero? villain?

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr; <<<< Questionable, either that or a fallen prophet.
Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assasins,
Plead unto heav'n while the earth lauds his fame. <<<< Questionable, is this doctrinal? Blood pleading?


Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood. <<<< Questionable, is it his? or melchizedek's? or the son of gods or Gods?
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true he will enter his kingdom, <<<< Questionable, his kindgdom?
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man. <<<<REMOVED FROM TEMPLE CEREMONY
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again. <<<< Questionable, for what reason? fraud? Polygamy?

Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.

[_Albion]

Not much of a fan of Dr, Phil but as he often says: "Past behavior is a pretty good indicator of future behavior." Now I'm willing to give anyone a second chance but Joseph Smith was a fraud and conman involved in necromancy before he founded the Mormon Church and after.

[_Albion]

Smith did not "revolutionize Christianity". He created a religious system that runs counter in numerous ways to accepted Christianity. Nothing within orthodox Christianity has changed because of Joseph Smith with the possible exception of the amount of time, effort and money that is expended to combat his assault upon it.

[_DarkHelmet]

My favorite comment on the blog was this:

“Suddenly there is a point where religion becomes laughable. Then you decide that you are nevertheless religious.”

When religion became laughable, I realized that I was not, after all, religious.

From what I know of Joanna Brooks, I like her, but I totally agree with this comment. Just because some Buddhist said it doesn't make it wise.

[_Spanner]

Believing something you know is false is lying to yourself. Monson, Packer, Kimball and Hinckley are all quoted as dismissing science (truth) in favor of false belief - why is there this perverse pride in maintaining belief no matter how obviously false? Even without the awkward history bits, what Joseph (with or without help, it doesn't matter) wrote in the Book of Mormon and PoGP contradicts science and plain history. It contradicts truth. If you can successfully lie to yourself you can lie to anyone.

Joanna seems to be behaving like some of my believing family that I can only compare to drug addicts. They have experienced the high and they want it again and they will lie to themselves and others, and waste money time and family in pursuit of it. And put up with misery in between fixes. Unfortunately this drug works best in a social bubble that the addict must construct out of family or friends by getting them hooked as well.

[_Yong Xi]

The more I know about Joseph Smith, the more I like him. Yes, he was flawed as all human beings are. Why should he be any different. But a guy who only lived to be 38, he accomplished much in that short time. And from 1834 to 1844, in those ten years he 'moved mountains'

Are you telling me that missionaries lose the spirit if they masturbate, rendering them ineffective, but Joseph stood in the presence of God despite likely manipulative, sexual encounters with teenage girls and married women? Surely, most people understand the disconnect. So what if he was complex (as though that is a virtue). So what if he moved mountains and accomplished much. What entitled him to such behavior? How do you excuse it?

[_The Dude]

In evolutionary terms, I think of Joseph Smith (and Joseph Smith's religion) as a kind of mutation - one that would almost certainly not have developed into what it is today unless it had been able to isolate itself from the rest of society.

All kinds of genetic mutations (or variants) that would not survive in the general population over time can serve to form entire new species when kept in isolation.

These new species are successful in their new environment. As a general rule, these species shrink in size relative to the founding populations because, more often than not, they are relatively free of predators and the environment they have adapted to is resource poor.

But when introduced back into the general population from which their founders came, these mutants generally do not well.

The LDS Church we see today is such a social (or religious) mutant. It can be thought of as the product of "allopatric speciation". It developed in relative isolation, and now finds itself at a distinct disadvantage because it has not bothered to re-adapt to the larger social environment.

Pygmy elephants (some two - three feet tall) are such an allopatric species. They are lot more important (and do a lot better) on the island of Borneo than they are (or do) on the continent of Africa.

Interesting POV. I like!