Feeling the honesty about Joseph Smith

[_Jaybear]

As I've said before on this forum, you don't believe Joseph Smith because of what he claimed, did, didn't do, and so on. You believe him because God tells you to. Joseph Smith was an imperfect man and had many flaws. Usually he isn't guilty of the flaws the critics accuse him of, but he had flaws nevertheless. For a Mormon, that is really unimportant. It is what he tells us about God and what God revealed to him that is important. Everything else is between Joseph Smith and God and I'll let God judge him as God will judge us all.

Good for you. Those of us who aren't visited by someone purporting to be a deity, and telling us what to believe, are left to rely on common sense and reason. To that end, Smith's actions which bear on his honesty, character and integrity are highly relevant.

Unless and until I hear from the big man myself, common sense and reason tells me that people who purport to speak to, and for God are either lying or delusional.

[_Jaybear]

So the reality that Warren Jeff's had sex with a twelve year old can be ignored? Can people of conscience just overlook that? Can those people look at the fruit of their prophet and say that maybe they are in the wrong religion?

If you believe in a God that condones slavery, a God who endorses polygamy, rape victims marrying rapists, a God who is a misogynist, racist, jealous of other gods, vindictive and genocidal, is intolerant of dissent and nonbelievers, an all powerful being who is seemingly indifferent to the suffering caused by tsunami's earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, forest fires, birth defects, why would you doubt that he would tell his prophet to marry a 12 year girl.

If enough people start to believe God speaks to Tobin, and he becomes their prophet, I wont be the least bit surprised if one day God tells Tobin that he needs to spread his righteous seed. God favors the righteous.

[_brade]

Let's alter it a little. What if a member of the FLDS church said this:

As I've said before on this forum, you don't believe Warren Jeffs because of what he claimed, did, didn't do, and so on. You believe him because God tells you to. Warren Jeffs was an imperfect man and had many flaws. Usually he isn't guilty of the flaws the critics accuse him of, but he had flaws nevertheless. For a Fundamentalist Mormon, that is really unimportant. It is what he tells us about God and what God revealed to him that is important. Everything else is between Warren Jeffs and God and I'll let God judge him as God will judge us all.

Would you still agree?

Yes, I agree that if you take seriously some account of religious epistemology and you sincerely believe you've been spoken to by God, then you'll find yourself believing whatever nonsense you think God has told you, evidence to the contrary be damned.

I agree with Tobin that people don't believe the claims of Mormonism because of any such evidence (historical, scientific, etc.). They believe the claims because they believe God told them they're true.

[_brade]

So the reality that Warren Jeff's had sex with a twelve year old can be ignored? Can people of conscience just overlook that? Can those people look at the fruit of their prophet and say that maybe they are in the wrong religion?

Yes, that fact can be overlooked, or at least not enter into considerations of what to believe, when one takes seriously the view the God will tell them whether to believe the religious claims of Jeffs, and one sincerely believes, through some spiritual experience or another, that God has told them to believe the claims of Jeffs.

This is the point Tobin has brought forward. It doesn't matter what the best available evidence suggests if you believe God has told you otherwise. This is why I've suggested that apologists ought to spend more time defending some form of religious epistemology, because in my view there isn't an epistemological model that plays nice with Mormon claims about knowledge and belief and is defensible. It's when people come to realize that that they're forced to face up to the evidence and then draw conclusions about the church's claims. And in my view, absent commitment to spiritual experience as a means of believing such things, the best available evidence weighs against belief in most of the church's foundational claims.

[_Jaybear]

I agree with Tobin that people don't believe the claims of Mormonism because of any such evidence (historical, scientific, etc.). They believe the claims because they believe God told them they're true.

I doubt that there are very many Mormons who purport to have had the same or similar God experience that Tobin claims to have had. If that were the case, there wouldn't be so many ex Mormons.

Based on his veiled statements, I understand that Tobin believes that he is special. That God didn't just send "the spirit", he came down from his home planet to personally impart truth to Tobin.

[_Tobin]

Yes, let people of conscience follow their conscience and God. I would tell you the exact same thing. That you should seek God and do what God tells you to do. I have not specified what that is. And if others are doing what they feel God wants them to do, harming no one, doing good, etc. then leave them be. I don't feel a need to get on an internet forum and belittle the FLDS for what they believe. I also feel no need to do so for Catholics, Jews, Muslims, and so on. Why should Mormons be treated any differently?

So the reality that Warren Jeff's had sex with a twelve year old can be ignored? Can people of conscience just overlook that? Can those people look at the fruit of their prophet and say that maybe they are in the wrong religion?

You'll note I didn't say that. I said people of conscience should do what they feel is right and what God wants them to do. I don't believe breaking the law necessarily falls under that.

[_Bob Loblaw]

You'll note I didn't say that. I said people of conscience should do what they feel is right and what God wants them to do. I don't believe breaking the law necessarily falls under that.

Joseph Smith broke the law on many occasions. Is that kosher with you?

[_Tobin]

You'll note I didn't say that. I said people of conscience should do what they feel is right and what God wants them to do. I don't believe breaking the law necessarily falls under that.

Joseph Smith broke the law on many occasions. Is that kosher with you?

And he was tried and acquitted in some instances and convicted in others. Gandhi broke the laws too and was tried and imprisoned for it as well. Again, that isn't the basis of why you believe such men. You believe them because God tells you that what they say is true. Otherwise, for goodness sake, do not believe them.

[Guest]

Gandhi broke the laws too and was tried and imprisoned for it as well.

There is a difference between unjust laws, and laws which are meant to protect others against fraud and other forms of abuse.

[_Stormy Waters]

You'll note I didn't say that. I said people of conscience should do what they feel is right and what God wants them to do. I don't believe breaking the law necessarily falls under that.

Can either members or investigators of the FLDS church take the actions of Warren Jeffs into consideration when evaluating the truth claims of said church?