Feeling the honesty about Joseph Smith

[_Tobin]

You'll note I didn't say that. I said people of conscience should do what they feel is right and what God wants them to do. I don't believe breaking the law necessarily falls under that.

Can either members or investigators of the FLDS church take the actions of Warren Jeffs into consideration when evaluating the truth claims of said church?

Of course, but people of conscience are going to do what they feel is right and should speak with God about such things. That is why I said it was generally unimportant. I'm well aware of the facts about Jeffs, Joseph Smith, and others. I'm going to look at it and do what I feel is right and what I think God would want me to do at the end of the day.

[_MCB]

I'm going to look at it and do what I feel is right and what I think God would want me to do at the end of the day.

Congratulations!! We will hold you to that.

[_GR33N]

What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience.

You can believe what the apostates accused Joseph of or you can believe Joseph. I've chosen to believe Joseph.

[_Stormy Waters]

What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience.

You can believe what the apostates accused Joseph of or you can believe Joseph. I've chosen to believe Joseph.

Yes. Apostates like Zina Hunington, Eliza partridge, and Helen Mar Kimball...
If it were Disputable at all, no doubt FAIR would be disputing it.

[_beefcalf]

What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience.

You can believe what the apostates accused Joseph of or you can believe Joseph. I've chosen to believe Joseph.

GR33N,

In August of 1840, John Bennet came to Nauvoo and quickly made lots of friends, including Joseph Smith. He joined the Church just a few months later.

Just a few months after that, God Himself was so very, very pleased with this new convert that he singled Brother Bennett out by name in a revelation he gave to Joseph Smith on January 19th, 1841, saying, in part: "I have seen the work which he hath done, which I accept if he continue, and will crown him with blessings and great glory" (D&C 124:17)

Over the following year and a half, things take a decided turn for the worse for Bennett, and Joseph Smith ends up kicking him out of town. On June 24th 1842, Smith sends a letter to the Governor of Illinois telling the governor all about Bennett. In this letter he writes: "...[Bennett's] general character is that of an adulterer of the worst kind..." and "More than twenty months ago Bennett went to a lady in the city and began to teach her that promiscuous intercourse between the sexes was lawful and no harm in it, and requested the privilege of gratifying his passions; but she refused in the strongest terms, saying that it was very wrong to do so, and it would bring a disgrace on the Church... he seduced a respectable female with lying, and subjected her to public infamy and disgrace. Not contented with what he had already done, he made the attempt on others, and by using the same language, seduced them also." and "It can be proven by hundreds of witnesses that he is one of the basest of liars, and that his whole routine of proceedings, while among us, has been of the basest kind."

So, lets break out our calendars and see exactly what happened:

Smiths letter dated 24 June 1842 says Bennett has been committing adultery for the previous 20 months, putting us back to... wait for it... October of 1840. The entirety of his time in Nauvoo, he was committing adultery and seducing women. Yet, even though this had begun in October of 1840, according to Joseph Smith (and many other witnesses), God was apparently either unaware of Bennett's adulterous affairs, or he was perfectly content to let them happen, because D&C 124:16-17 was given exactly during the time that Bennett was engaging in all this activity, January of 1841.

We can read what Joseph Smith wrote in the revelation from God. We can read what Joseph Smith wrote in his letter to Governor Thomas Carlin.

No apostates screeds. No anti-Mormon rhetoric. Nothing but the very words of Joseph Smith himself.

Which Joseph do you believe?

1) The Joseph Smith who wrote the revelation in D&C 124. Bennett really was a good guy and Smith was later lying his pants off about Bennett being an adulterer.

2) The Joseph Smith that wrote the letter. Bennett really was a jerk and an immoral adulterer, and Smith lied about receiving revelations from God.

[_beefcalf]

GR33N:

You may find Joseph Smith's letter to Governor Carlin as follows:

1) go to http://byustudies2.BYU.edu/hc/hcpgs/hc.aspx
2) select Volume 5
3) select "Actions in Relation to John C. Bennett et al.—The Prophet's Instructions to the Relief Society—Treatise on the 'Holy Ghost'—William Law's Defense of the Saints—The Prophet's Address to the Church."
4) Search for keywords: "Thomas Carlin, Governor"

You may find D&C 124:16-17 here: https://www.LDS.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... 4?lang=eng

I hope you can trust me when I tell you that neither of these sources, not BYU.edu nor LDS.org, are anti-mormon, or apostate-oriented organizations, despite the fact that they publish such damning evidences against Joseph Smith.

[_Drifting]

You'll note I didn't say that. I said people of conscience should do what they feel is right and what God wants them to do. I don't believe breaking the law necessarily falls under that.

But what if their 'conscience and what they feel' conflicts with what "God wants them to do."?

[_brade]

GR33N,

In August of 1840, John Bennet came to Nauvoo and quickly made lots of friends, including Joseph Smith. He joined the Church just a few months later.

Just a few months after that, God Himself was so very, very pleased with this new convert that he singled Brother Bennett out by name in a revelation he gave to Joseph Smith on January 19th, 1841, saying, in part: "I have seen the work which he hath done, which I accept if he continue, and will crown him with blessings and great glory" (D&C 124:17)

Over the following year and a half, things take a decided turn for the worse for Bennett, and Joseph Smith ends up kicking him out of town. On June 24th 1842, Smith sends a letter to the Governor of Illinois telling the governor all about Bennett. In this letter he writes: "...[Bennett's] general character is that of an adulterer of the worst kind..." and "More than twenty months ago Bennett went to a lady in the city and began to teach her that promiscuous intercourse between the sexes was lawful and no harm in it, and requested the privilege of gratifying his passions; but she refused in the strongest terms, saying that it was very wrong to do so, and it would bring a disgrace on the Church... he seduced a respectable female with lying, and subjected her to public infamy and disgrace. Not contented with what he had already done, he made the attempt on others, and by using the same language, seduced them also." and "It can be proven by hundreds of witnesses that he is one of the basest of liars, and that his whole routine of proceedings, while among us, has been of the basest kind."

So, lets break out our calendars and see exactly what happened:

Smiths letter dated 24 June 1842 says Bennett has been committing adultery for the previous 20 months, putting us back to... wait for it... October of 1840. The entirety of his time in Nauvoo, he was committing adultery and seducing women. Yet, even though this had begun in October of 1840, according to Joseph Smith (and many other witnesses), God was apparently either unaware of Bennett's adulterous affairs, or he was perfectly content to let them happen, because D&C 124:16-17 was given exactly during the time that Bennett was engaging in all this activity, January of 1841.

We can read what Joseph Smith wrote in the revelation from God. We can read what Joseph Smith wrote in his letter to Governor Thomas Carlin.

No apostates screeds. No anti-Mormon rhetoric. Nothing but the very words of Joseph Smith himself.

Which Joseph do you believe?

1) The Joseph Smith who wrote the revelation in D&C 124. Bennett really was a good guy and Smith was later lying his pants off about Bennett being an adulterer.

2) The Joseph Smith that wrote the letter. Bennett really was a jerk and an immoral adulterer, and Smith lied about receiving revelations from God.

[_Stormy Waters]

Thanks for that beefcalf, I was looking for more information on Bennet.

[_Stormy Waters]

For another example of dishonesty,

Heber C. Kimball was commanded by Joseph to take on plural wives. Joseph apparently choose the wife for him. In this case, Heber was commanded not to tell his wife Vilate of the marriage "for fear that she would not receive the principal." His daughter Helen Mar wrote of this "This was the greatest test of his faith he had ever experienced... the thought of deceiving the kind and faithful wife of his youth." Eventually Heber obeyed this "commandment."

-    Women’s Exponent, v. 10, October 15, 1881, p. 74