quark wrote:Why could't I just have a happy religious life, Bob? Why do I look at my time with religion as a life filled with a giant lie? Why can't I look back and see the spiritual feasts and wrestlings with angels? My religious experience was dark. There were times I didn't feel like continuing, wishing I was never born.
Your right though. I need to leave the past behind.
The dirty little secret is that Mormonism taught you to lie. Honesty in the church brings shame and punishment, so most Mormons lie and go on with their lives. That it bothers you says something about your character, but you did what the circumstances required.
Yup. How many are miserable about not telling the bishop what they did, until one day the do and the bishop has to tell them it's not the big deal they thought it was. The culture of what is evil is so bad in the church, some feel terrible for having those WD's. If your wife is ok with it as an apostate, then I am willing to bet most bishops would not have worried about it much. Most bishops are not going to keep your TR over something like porn, even though church culture would make most TBM wives devastated by it.
quark wrote:I'm also curious to know whether my TR renewal would be delayed for the sins I never divulged. When I get more time, I will post the juicies!
You need to stop obsessing about the past (which the church has taught you to do). It's over and done with and your wife knows everything. Let it go.
This is exactly what the bishop would tell you (or would have told you) if you had answered yes and told him your stuff. Unless you had an affair or something truly serious.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Bob Loblaw wrote:You need to stop obsessing about the past (which the church has taught you to do). It's over and done with and your wife knows everything. Let it go.
Why could't I just have a happy religious life, Bob? Why do I look at my time with religion as a life filled with a giant lie? Why can't I look back and see the spiritual feasts and wrestlings with angels? My religious experience was dark. There were times I didn't feel like continuing, wishing I was never born.
Your right though. I need to leave the past behind.
You're not alone. Everyone's religious experience is dark on the inside. It's set up that way. They tell you to be perfect, which is an impossible standard to meet. Then they use fear and guilt. Deep down, no one feels worthy inside.
I am a bishop. If I were your bishop this is what I would tell you:
Every week I see people who are either too terrified or too scarred from past negative experiences to go see the bishop. Most bishops that I know need to do a much better job with member confessions. The training most receive is grossly inadequate.
It sounds you have already made the searching inventory of your mistakes, confessed them to someone else, and tried to make amends. I can totally understand your desire not to revisit the painful past. The thought of having to review past transgressions is so discouraging to most people that they just give up.
We have all had long, dark nights of the soul. As long as you can admit, as Alma, that your soul has been harrowed up, that is all that is necessary. You can use whatever imagery you need and find useful. Just remember, there are very few sins that require confession to a bishop- the rest are between you and God.
Also, please do not read “The Miracle of Forgiveness”. In my humble opinion, it is one of the most spiritually and emotionally destructive books one can read.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."
quark wrote:What do you think? Can lies just vaporize once you realize the question is no longer valid per my current beliefs?
Well you're taking the first step, which is confronting the issue with yourself, and coming to terms with it. It's possible that the only thing you can really do is acknowledge to yourself that you made a mistake and resolve not to make it again in the future.
If you need some self-justification, you can acknowledge that the church pushes people into dishonesty by asking questions they really have no business asking in the first place, and setting up a culture of shame and guilt that puts you in a place mentally that you really shouldn't have to be in. That might reduce the dissonance you're feeling a little. Then acknowledge your responsibility and make some resolutions about the future, which it looks like you're doing. And then let it go, because there's nothing you can do about it now except to act differently in the future.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Bob Loblaw wrote:The dirty little secret is that Mormonism taught you to lie. Honesty in the church brings shame and punishment, so most Mormons lie and go on with their lives. That it bothers you says something about your character, but you did what the circumstances required.
My problem, Bob, was that I felt hopeless. I refused to bear the scarlet letter in life and the price I pay for my refusal is to wear it in heaven. I believed that Christ's atonement had no affect on me because of this refusal. Every time I tried to confess to a bishop, I came away believing I did not say it all. By the time I was 30 years old, I felt I had racked up so many un-confessed (un-repented of) sins that it would take a SERIOUS undertaking to remove them all from my permanent record. I finally gave up and just resigned to the fact that I was not a good person, deep down. It was very demoralizing and disheartening for me. I also wasn't sure whether I should feel worse about my dishonesty or the sins it originated from.
quark wrote:Well, if she had found out while we believed, it would have been devastating. I got a free pass on the divulge to wife part. Rather than divulge to a tbm wife, I divulged to an apostate wife.
I guess I am beating myself up for nothing here. It's just this whole lying business that gets me. The "sins" are nothing but hot air. Maybe the bishops would have let me keep the TR. Maybe it wouldn't have a big deal at all to them. But the fact is, I wasn't honest for many years. Deep down, I believed my answer should be "Yes" but I always said "no".
Look at this way, the Church lied to you first so it's evens stevens...
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
quark wrote:While visiting with bishops at least twice per year for 20 years, I was asked the question, "Is there anything that hasn't been cleared up that needs to be discussed now?"
Every time I was asked that question, I believed the answer to be "Yes". I said "No." every time, while believing that was a lie. Looking back, I'm no longer concerned that I had any issues that needed to be divulged. But the point is that I believed differently back then and lied about it. No matter what I believe today, the fact remains that I lied for 20 years.
Even worse, my dear wife believed that I was telling the truth to the bishop as well. If I had divulged everything to the bishop, there is a good chance my TR would be delayed at least for a couple months. By lying to the bishop about my worthiness, I was also being dishonest with my wife.
I just can't clear my mind of this.
What do you think? Can lies just vaporize once you realize the question is no longer valid per my current beliefs?
I don't know if you need to rationalize your past behavior based on how you view the church today.
So you lied? Ok. You recognize it and if you go forward being as honest as you can, then you can let the past go.
That is all forgiveness is...letting the past go and forgiving yourself.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.