Bob Loblaw wrote:I think what has happened is that the church has gotten better at intimidating members so that events like the September are less likely.I doubt anything has changed otherwise.
There is no doubt that if anyone said what Paul Toscano did at Sunstone 20 years ago regarding Packer, that person would be ex'ed post haste. Do you think that advocating a more prominent role for Heavenly Mother would still lead to excommunication?
Cicero wrote:There is no doubt that if anyone said what Paul Toscano did at Sunstone 20 years ago regarding Packer, that person would be ex'ed post haste. Do you think that advocating a more prominent role for Heavenly Mother would still lead to excommunication?
If certain of the GAs were aware of it, yes.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
I wonder what the score is between number of members who have maintained their activity in the Church as a result of the explanation and information on MormonThink against the number of members who were given the reason/fortitude to leave the Church after perusing it?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Does this publicly available content constitute a breach of the covenant of secrecy one takes in the Temple?
All Seeing Eye The all seeing eye is indeed used by the Masons but also by many others. It is found on the revers of the Great Seal of the United States for example. Anointing with oil A very old practice found in Christian, Jewish and Islamic traditions. It is not, however,found in the Masonic tradition outside of the setting of a cornerstone with wine, oil and corn. Apron Both groups use them. The reference comes from the Bible; the symbology is different, however. The LDS use can be traced to Gen. 3:7 “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.” The Masonic usage refers to aprons worn by stone masons in quarries. The aprons themselves differ. The Masonic one is white lamb’s skin; the LDS apron in green representing the fig leaves spoken of in the creation story. Beehive Found in Masonry but also found in the Book of Mormon. It is a nearly universal icon of industry. Square and Compass Found in both the LDS temple and among the Masons. Their symbolic use differs in each, however. The endowment does not use a physical square and compass as the Masons do. Emblem of the clasped hands A very old symbol of brotherly love that can be found on tombstones in New England. Found even on the graves of women who would not have been Masons. Solemn Assembly in the Temple This has no Masonic equivalent unless you consider a Grand Lodge meeting to be a Solemn Assembly (which Masons do not). Five points of Fellowship A Masonic tradition once used in the temple. Removed after 1990 as it had become meaningless to modern saints. Special Garments applied to initiates The temple garments worn by the Latter-day Saints the first time they attend the temple are the same as they use every day. Masons have special clothing, not undergarments, that symbolically show that they come to the lodge without any material possessions including clothing. Masons do not have symbolic clothing worn outside the lodge. Garment Markings Masonic ritualistic clothing have markings which are intended to provide a means of conducting the ritual. They do not carry symbolic meaning within the Masonic traditions. Special handshakes They are different both in form and meaning. The phrase: “Holiness to the Lord” The Masonic as well as the LDS usage of this phase comes from the Bible (Exodus 28:36 “And thou shalt make a plate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, HOLINESS TO THE LORD.”) Moon symbol Mankind have been using the symbols of the heavens long before the establishment of Masons. New Name given Practice is found in scripture (Saul becomes Paul, for example). The Masonic as well as LDS practice comes from the Bible. Special Prayer circle No such practice in Masonry. Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood Not found in Masonry. Blood/death oaths of secrecy with morbid gestures and words describing penalties agreed to if secrets are revealed. Mormons going through the temple post-1990 may not be familiar with these. See the earlier discussion of the penalties. Location (possession of) Throne of the “Holy of Holies” Masons make no claim to possession of such. Neither do Latter-day Saints. Both groups make a reference to in in connection to the Temple of Solomon. Star symbols, Sun symbols See Moon symbols. Tabernacles, Temples In both cases clearly a reference to the Bible usage.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Persons who have been excommunicated are usually allowed to attend church meetings but participation is limited. They cannot offer prayers for the congregation, give talks, etc., cannot enter LDS temples, or wear temple garments, or pay tithes.
...wait, what, downsides?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Drifting wrote:I wonder what the score is between number of members who have maintained their activity in the Church as a result of the explanation and information on MormonThink against the number of members who were given the reason/fortitude to leave the Church after perusing it?
Count me as one that left the church much more confidently after reading MormonThink, especially the Testimony and Spiritual Witnesses section.
Out of EVERYTHING that I read about problems of church history, I was still hanging on to my spiritual witness. After reading that article, the confidence to leave finally came...
Dan Vogel wrote:It's an irony, indeed, to be persecuted for telling the truth by one's own Church.
Ironic indeed. "While they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth?"
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Bob Loblaw wrote: Ironic indeed. "While they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth?"
"Truth" is important when it builds up God's Church, otherwise not.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Fence Sitter wrote:"Truth" is important when it builds up God's Church, otherwise not.
Suppressing unhelpful truths or telling lies in service of the greater "truth" (i.e., that "the church is true") is still in being truthful in their minds.