MormonThink events

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _Fence Sitter »

why me wrote:From MormonThink:

Our thoughts

This essay doesn't prove that Joseph wrote the Book of Mormon, but it also doesn't prove that Joseph or someone else didn't write the Book of Mormon either. There seems to be ample evidence that shows that Joseph or someone like him could have written the Book of Mormon, and it didn't have to come from a divine source. It may have happened just as Joseph claimed but that cannot be determined by assuming Joseph could not have written it. The evidence seems to show it was at least possible that Joseph, with or without help, could have produced a book like the Book of Mormon.

LDS historian Grant Palmer asserts that 80% of the Book of Mormon can be explained by such sources available to Joseph Smith as The Holy Bible, View of the Hebrews, Joseph's family and surroundings, local protestant revival meetings, etc. The other 20% may have merely come from Joseph or someone else's imagination.

To not have a definitive answer as to how exactly the remaining unexplained portion of the Book of Mormon was derived doesn't make it so perplexing of a mystery as to assume divine intervention must have taken place. Joseph may have received help, but Joseph's "angels" perhaps were no more supernatural than David Copperfield's assistants.

There are so many more amazing mysteries that we don't know the answers to, but we don't immediately say that it must have some supernatural explanation, such as; how did Beethoven write entire symphonies when he was totally deaf, how were the pyramids of Egypt built, how did Einstein come up with the theory of relativity, how did Mozart compose music as a child, etc. We're more amazed at how Daniel Tammet memorized and recited pi to 22,514 digits than how Joseph maybe wrote a book.

We don't know exactly how illusionist David Copperfield can make the Statue of Liberty seem to disappear or how magician Chris Angel can 'float' between buildings but us not knowing exactly how these gifted magicians perform their illusions doesn't change the fact that they are merely tricks and nothing supernatural. Similarly we don't know exactly how Joseph Smith came up with the Book of Mormon but to merely assume it must have been by using seer stones and gold plates is a bit premature.

Many people believe that Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon by using a combination of several factors such as his story telling gift, his Bible study and other religious and secular training, remarkable innate abilities, assistance from others such as Cowdery and Rigdon, etc.


Not very faith promoting. Also, all the information before this is a woulda, coulda, and a shoulda. It is meant to cast doubt for members and perpsective members. And this is a prolds site? Please.


Should a member who believes that the Book of Mormon was written this way and is faithful in all other aspects be kicked out of the Church?

Lets make the question even easier. Should a member who believes the PoGP was not actually on the papyri Joseph Smith had be kicked out of the Church?

Why do either one of these scenarios preclude those two scriptures from being inspired?

Where does it say that belief in a historical Book of Mormon or PoGP is a prerequisite to membership in the LDS Church?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_just me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9070
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:46 pm

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _just me »

I don't understand how the blog site was taken over? Does anyone understand that?
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Stormy Waters

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _Stormy Waters »

just me wrote:I don't understand how the blog site was taken over? Does anyone understand that?


I think that after David took his down some opportunist created a new one with the same name.
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _sock puppet »

I think that David is entitled to express what he thinks.

I think a private organization is entitled to de-member whomever it likes. The right to freely associate includes the right not to associate with those one does not want to, and that includes other Mormons, as a group, not wanting to associate any longer with David, even if it is because he has had the audacity to express what he thinks.

However, I think it gets a bit more complicated here. If I decide, for example, that I no longer want to be an Amway salesman, I yet have contractual rights to some residuals on order renewals and sales of my downline. The LDS Church, when it ex-communicates you, 'cancels' your ordinances, that it inculcated in you are are prerequisite to your 'salvation' in the eternal hereafter.

It's one thing to say to someone you are no longer a member of our organization, it is quite another to claim that you are stripped of essential ordinances. (I do not believe those ordinances have any more efficacy than doing the Hoky Poky, "put your right arm in, put your right arm out, put right arm in and shake it all about...". But I think it is silly to maintain that god will deny you salvation because the organization kicked you out.)

This smacks of a closed shop state in labor union law terminology. In some states, if a majority of employees of a company vote to unionize, those employees that voted against the union are required to join the union in order to keep their jobs with the company. That is so despite the company and the no-voting employee neither wanting the union.

In other states, right to work states, the 1st Amendment right of free association is respected more. In such states, a union may organize among the willing employees, but it cannot force an unwilling employee to join the union just to keep his or her job. That unwilling employee can continue working for the company despite not joining the union. That respects the individual rights of each worker better, and respects the right of free association of that worker and the company, both that want to continue the employment relationship between them without the intrusion of the union into that relationship.

Here, because of the LDS Church's hubris that it and it alone gets to say who has efficacious ordinances, necessary for god's blessings, are insinuating themselves in between the relationship of the individual and god. The LDS Church, when it comes to the 'saving ordinances' and canceling them with regards to an ex-communicated member, is taking the same approach as a closed union shop.

If he is excommunicated, David may yet consider his ordinances valid. It is repugnant to any form of human (or even 'divine') decency that the LDS Church would claim them canceled, just because it notes such in their records.

And it is most ironic that if an ex-communicated member is re-baptized, those ordinances are restored without going through the Hoky Poky of each one. That suggests that either the Hoky Poky steps were not necessary in the first place, for anyone, or that the ordinances never were 'canceled' in the first place.

Don't they even think this crap through at the COB?
_Nomomo
_Emeritus
Posts: 801
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:42 am

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _Nomomo »

Stormy Waters wrote:
just me wrote:I don't understand how the blog site was taken over? Does anyone understand that?


I think that after David took his down some opportunist created a new one with the same name.

Evidently David deleted the blog titled Prozac-ville completely which made the url (http://prozac-ville.blogspot.com) for the blog immediately unused and available. Then a Mormon apologist internet warrior created a blog at blogspot.com using prozac-ville for the url (http://prozac-ville.blogspot.com) but changed the name of the blog to MormonThink Exposed.

I believe if David had instead of deleted his blog had rather in the user control panel just unchecked the box for "publish" that would have removed the blog from current internet access to anyone but himself (the same as taking it down essentially) and then the prozac-ville part of the url for the blog would perhaps have not then become available for the apologist warrior to then use the same url for a new blog with the new title.
The Universe is stranger than we can imagine.
_just me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9070
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:46 pm

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _just me »

Oh, I see. That makes sense.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Yoda

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _Yoda »

It looks like David has re-posted his blog here:

http://mormonthinkblog2012.blogspot.com/
_Joe Geisner
_Emeritus
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:38 pm

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _Joe Geisner »

Nomomo wrote:
Stormy Waters wrote:Evidently David deleted the blog titled Prozac-ville completely which made the url (http://prozac-ville.blogspot.com) for the blog immediately unused and available. Then a Mormon apologist internet warrior created a blog at blogspot.com using prozac-ville for the url (http://prozac-ville.blogspot.com) but changed the name of the blog to MormonThink Exposed.

I believe if David had instead of deleted his blog had rather in the user control panel just unchecked the box for "publish" that would have removed the blog from current internet access to anyone but himself (the same as taking it down essentially) and then the prozac-ville part of the url for the blog would perhaps have not then become available for the apologist warrior to then use the same url for a new blog with the new title.


Nomomo

Is there any way to know who is the current own of the site?
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _why me »

liz3564 wrote:It looks like David has re-posted his blog here:

http://mormonthinkblog2012.blogspot.com/


From his blog:

Most of you already know this, and it is discussed very well at many sites, so you may wonder why I’m bringing it up. Why? Because of Pat.

I decided to send Pat two links: The first link to Mormon information Graphics on the Book of Abraham, and a second one to FAIR’s explanation of one of the facsimiles. That way Pat would see the fully-exposed (Elohim’s "godhood" included) version and the “legitimate version” at FAIR. I sent it on Wednesday night, and heard back from Pat on Saturday morning. The response surprised me a little.

PAT: I have never seen this. I’ve been in dismay for the past couple of days. Based on your reaction at church I thought I might be able to help ease your doubts. Now I don’t know.

We’ve exchanged phone numbers and we’re talking about many other issues. Pat shared some of these with the spouse and now they might both be having serious doubts. I will have to be careful on Sunday not to give them or myself away.

There is also a possibility that the woman I talked with at the end of the meeting might be open to discussing some issues. How fast should I go with her? I can't recall the rules with LDS women...


My guess is that Pat a talk with the stake president expressing his doubts after receiving the information from the blogster who it seems wanted to lead him out of the church. Or the woman went to the bishop to tell him what was going on. Why would he do this to Pat and the woman if he had good intentions toward the church? Poor Pat and poor woman.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Joe Geisner
_Emeritus
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:38 pm

Re: MormonThink events

Post by _Joe Geisner »

David's Stake President's letter is posted:

http://mormonthinkblog2012.blogspot.com ... etter.html
Post Reply