A tale of a church court.

[_sock puppet]

Most Mormons who leave the Church tend to gravitate towards atheism, and that may be because Mormonism itself created this inescapable dichotomy. If Mormonism isn't true - then both God and religion are dead in the water.

A more false dichotomy, I can scarcely think of.

Yes, Ray. That was the false dichotomy with which I too was inculcated for 25 years. One extension of it was that "if I did pick another religion, it would be RC because it would have a claim to authority from God in the absence of the Great Apostasy, which would be shuttled with the rest of Mormonism."

What the false dichotomy did do for me, when I shucked off Mormonism, was to examine atheism as a viable alternative to theism. But for the false dichotomy so inculcated, I probably would have flailed out of Mormonism right into the bucket of some other Christian denomination. But the silver lining of this false dichotomy for me was it allowed me to look at atheism seriously.

I am apatheistic, agnostic. Like everyone else, I do not know whether god exists. So it is a question. But it is one I no longer find interesting, having come out the other side of having been affirmatively atheistic for a few years in the late 1980s.

But, Ray, to your point, there's no question that I was inculcated with the false dichotomy, which was part of my Mormon hangover and thus allowed me to seriously consider atheism.

[_lulu]

(I OD'd yesterday on Gregorian Chant ,

I don't think that's possible. Can one OD on oxygen?

[_sock puppet]

...my hearing loss issues (I OD'd yesterday on Gregorian Chant , ... .

Hey, MCB, I have a hearing loss issue exacerbated this week, but not by Gregorian Chant. Mine was from Godsmack and Shinedown on the same Rockstar Energy 2012 Uproar Festival bill the other night.

[_MCB]

Will NEVER get into the kind of music that exacerbates hearing loss. I need more balance. I need to download some Eagles and Mannheim steamroller and moody blues. Along with more Hildegarde of Bingen. Thanks, Lulu.

[_Sethbag]

A couple of things stand out to me. First, this woman lives in fantasyland, but it's the Mormon fantasyland, ie: she took what they taught, plus what the scriptures say, and assumed they actually meant what they said, literally.

I thought it was funny how the ward clerk smirked when she said she'd received revelations. "As if!

The really weird thing is that you and Mormons (well, some, who include leaders) totally agree on this.

You should seriously consider going back to church, Seth. You've got that "policeman touch". lol. Policing what's possible, or not possible. Maybe that's why you are the way you are? Because you were taught to be a Mormon policeman called and heralded to be the discerner of "truth and error"? It shows. So let me guess, you're suffering from some kind of "Mormon hangover", which denies the real possibility of modern revelation and miracles "outside authorised circles"?

I don't deny the possibility. It's just become apparent to me that no "revelation", modern or ancient, was ever anything but manmade. With that as a pattern, the most likely scenario is that no "revelation" to come will be any different - all manmade, always has been, probably always will be.

I could be wrong, and acknowledge such, but it would take good evidence of my being wrong to convince me.

I know you're contemptuous of both, but I'd suggest that this contempt took seed in your Mormon upbringing.

I think putting the word "contempt" in my mouth is distorting my actual intent and meaning. I'm not contemptuous of revelation. It doesn't even really exist. Rather, I'm incredulous and skeptical. By calling it contempt you perpetuate the victim label many believers want to wear as a sort of badge of honor.

"Miracles", are only "allowed" by "those so authorised". The ironic fact about Mormonism is that it, maybe unwittingly, "trains" its members in selective skepticism. No authority? Be skeptical. No "empirical backing"? Be skeptical.

They miss the mark. They forgot "no evidence? Be skeptical!".

You've given me some real food for thought here.

I certainly wouldn't want you to starve.

[Anonymous]

Sethbag, yeah, I agree with you that there are situations that show the stupidity of the brethren and the Church in ways nothing else can. In addition to things you mentioned, what made me bust a gut is how out of place the brethren with their ledgers and fine print are in a religion that burst forth in the latter-days claiming the heavens open, and showering revelation and gifts of the spirit on the Saints. It's like, you just want people to understand -- even if they ultimately vote for Romney anyway -- how the LDS male peers to Romney have this fantastic power to do things like, surgically remove the mysterious gift of the Holy Ghost from someones life by a formal proceeding for exactly the space of twelve months wherein, if the legalese accompanying the removal is complied with by the subject, the Holy Ghost can be re-infused into the persons body by the same council at the end of the separation term. It's bat**** crazy.

Yeah, no doubt! I was thinking, when I first read the blog entry, that perhaps the woman will realize that she still "feels the Spirit" every bit as much now as she did before the council. If she then remembers that the brethren pronounced that she no longer had the Gift of the Holy Ghost, it might occur to her how full of crap they are. I would hope she could put two and two together and realize that the whole Gift of the Holy Ghost thing is a sham, but I very much doubt it. This woman seems to be one of those people who live in Holy Ghost fantasyland, like Nightlion, and Tobin in his own way, and others we could probably name. I very much doubt she'll ever think her way out of it.

It makes the brethren look like the complete fools they are, and it makes Romney also look like a fool. But the reasons why these people are successful in life is that they are hypocrites and neither understand nor live their religion, their religion and its rites have become little more than initiation ritual for an overgrown Sorority club.

The one thing that's kind of bad though, is that while the Church screws over members with personality/mental health issues in its ignorance (it's vast, vast ignorance), when apostates are too supportive of people with issues "living their religion" as either a way to mock the church or to show how oppressive the Church is might not be helping the person in the long run. Encouragement is good, but possibly not good so superficially, "you go ahead brother (or sister) and walk with God however you want and teach the Church a lesson." The person may very well need professional help that would ultimately constrain how the person views them-self as walking with God.

No doubt. There's something a little unseemly about a bunch of atheists saying "you go girl!" to someone with some obvious mental issues, just because she's sticking it to the Church in her own way. That's why I pointed out in my first post in this thread that the woman lives in Mormon fantasyland.

[_Blixa]

Most Mormons who leave the Church tend to gravitate towards atheism, and that may be because Mormonism itself created this inescapable dichotomy. If Mormonism isn't true - then both God and religion are dead in the water.

A more false dichotomy, I can scarcely think of.

I agree with Ray on this one. Mormonism provides a person with a historical narrative that is myopic on the issue of religion. The variety of the discussion on deities, and its sophistication already centuries ago, make the usual post-Mormon thought process on the issue seem childish and ignorant in the extreme.

This is not always true, of course, but I bet it remains true in the vast majority of cases.

I completely agree with Ray and Kish here. It is a by-product of the Restoration Narrative: everything before that moment in the grove was corrupt and wrong. There's just this big hole in history that one never goes back and fills in because one doesn't even know it is there. Sure there's some fallout from the skepticism engendered by questioning the existence of the Golden Plates and such: yes every religion has something in it that defies reason and seems weird. But the trade off is lopsided. It is good to emancipate oneself from an organization that has been oppressive for you, but at the cost of shutting down any understanding of, or interest in, a rather large part of human history and experience?

[_Sethbag]

Blixa, Kish, Ray, I think of it more like this: I had to develop a substantial toolkit of critical thinking and ways of thinking about religious claims, in order to think my way through the Mormon sham. In my judgment, every other religion that I have become familiar with is susceptible/vulnerable to the same toolkit.

I don't think the dichotomy of "Mormonism or bust!" really applies with me, and probably others like me. It's more like "Mormonism, and all the other religions whose BS claims rest on similarly vulnerable epistemologies and evidential foundations."

[_Themis]

Sure there's some fallout from the skepticism engendered by questioning the existence of the Golden Plates and such:

Some? I would say there is a lot. It just makes sense if one can be open with the problems of their own religion, that they will be as much or more so with other religions. Most former believing LDS realize that Jesus and the Bible are not false because Joseph made up his religion, but they do tend to be knowledgeable of some of the problems with it. I think the real problem is the type of LDS member that can get to the point of realizing their beliefs are incorrect.

[_Sethbag]

Most former believing LDS realize that Jesus and the Bible are not false because Joseph made up his religion, but they do tend to be knowledgeable of some of the problems with it.

I personally had to disbelieve all of Mormonism at once, before I was able to let it go. In the course of this, I realized that the Bible was not what its believers claim it to be, and that there is almost certainly no God. And yet my rejection of all Bible-based religions (that I've yet encountered) is solely due to acceptance of a false dichotomy? I don't think so. I've heard claims by folks like Aristotle Smith that I should just have rejected the Mormon interpretation of the Bible, but the Bible itself, viewed in some other more sophisticated, is still true. I've never been convinced by these arguments.