=>Ex-Mo=>Liberal or Libertarian?

[_Kishkumen]

Politics is one of those arenas of discourse that get polarized so quickly, that it is hard not to get sucked into it. To riff off of C. Wright Mills here, the political becomes personal. That is to say, people are often quick to equate their political ideas as personal extensions of themselves that to be critical of a person’s politics is to be critical of their being.

But is it the case that in decrying Droopy's or bcspace's idiosyncratic, fringe version of Republicanism that one is insulting all Republicans?

In other words, if I can respect the intelligence of what comes from the mouth or pen of a David Frum, David Brooks, George Will, or Charles Krauthammer, regardless of the fact that I often disagree with them, are they to be painted with the bcspace or Droopy brush every time I call the latter two clowns clowns?

I don't think so. I also don't see those two "gentlemen" as representative of Republicanism or Mormonism anymore than I see Hitler as representative of all Germans or Saddam Hussein as representative of all Iraqis.

Now, I'll admit that these days it is easier to attribute the worst to Republicans given the loudmouth lunacy of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and Glenn Beck, but I prefer to believe that there are intelligent, learned, and humane conservatives who find the spectacle of that nonsense as stupid as I do.

[_huckelberry]

My memory said little change at first to the question of how my political view changed leaving the church.Then my memory cleared a bit so I see a shift towards libertarian views for some years after. That has probably faded some but not without residuals. I looked at radical left views and found some interest but failed to be able to fit them into my actual beliefs.

Kiskumen
"they are crypto-fascist crazies and conspiracy theorists."

that's a colorful way of seeing it. At the same time they are such good examples of a large dimension of Mormon culture. I always think I could know them. They might be relatives. What if Droopy is my former seminary teacher?

How those views grow and function in Mormon culture is a question that I remain curious about when most of my curiosity about Mormon doctrine has faded. Clearly Mormon culture does not require Droopys political views. Not all Mormons share his political devotion. Yet I suspect that every ward has some people that do and many people that are considerably closer to his views than they would be to my views.

I hear tell it is because they believe in free agency. Hopeless nonsense. Very few people in America do not believe in free agency. All sorts of political views may flow from believing in free agency as can be see from the variety of views thriving in the US.

I wonder if there is influence from believing the church has social authority far above the authority of the US government? There could be other influences encouraging distrust of the federal government. Polygamy for one, an army sent to Utah might be another.

[_MrStakhanovite]

But is it the case that in decrying Droopy's or bcspace's idiosyncratic, fringe version of Republicanism that one is insulting all Republicans?

I don’t think so, but then again I make a strong effort to divorce my politics from anything that is important to my self identity. Because I view my affiliation with the Republican party one borne out of necessary compromise, I don’t wear the Republican badge with any sense of legitimate pride.

I also don’t view politics as a “Us versus Them” mentality, or in Droops’ case “The Gospel versus Satan”. Accurate criticisms are accurate criticisms despite their source, and since I’m not loyal to my party like I am to my mother or brother, I don’t feel any sort of compulsion to defend the party immediately, such as trying to distance ‘Real Republicans’ (people who think like me) from the loonies on the grass(people who think like Droops)

I don't think so. I also don't see those two "gentlemen" as representative of Republicanism or Mormonism anymore than I see Hitler as representative of all Germans or Saddam Hussein as representative of all Iraqis.

Well, Hitler didn’t choose to be German and Saddam didn’t choose to be Iraqi. One does choose to be a Republican and a Mormon, and if you want those labels to mean anything, one has to take on the burden to policing those like Droops and taking them to task. This is why I spend more time calling out atheists than I do believers and why guys like David B are quick to point out that a Mormon faith doesn’t entail some crude notion of capitalism to prevail in the kingdom of heaven.

However, I think in principle you are right. I think you are just trying to extend the principle of charity as far as you can while also recognizing the world is complex and ambiguous while I'm of the mind that my party affiliation isn't worth the effort.

[_MCB]

I am all over the board in the way I want things to change:

I am for gun control.
I am against the US meddling in the affairs of other countries. Social problems in other countries should be the concern of individuals and their favorite charities. The UN can go back to handling the "big" stuff. We need to focus on solving our own problems, and not going out in the world to try to impose our culture on other countries.
I am for the gradual restriction of abortion.
I am for the legalization and regulation of marijuana.
I am for universal health coverage. However, I am opposed to unbridled spending-- I don't think the poor need the cadillac in terms of health care. For example, there are a lot of hearing aids sitting in peoples' drawers, that ought to be turned in (or traded in) and rebuilt by the companies that sold them and re-sold for those who cannot afford the latest technology.
The poor ought to work for benefits whenever possible.
I am opposed to businesses that call themselves religions, and thus evade taxes.
I am opposed to forcing people to do (or not do) things which are against their consciences. This extends to religions which try to impose their standards on other religious groups.
I am for tuition vouchers, with assurance (such as regular achievement testing and GED testing) that education is really taking place.
I am for domestic partnerships, giving those who live together (regardless of gender or sex) without marriage some rights.
I am for affirmative action, giving advantages in employment and education to the economically and educationally disadvantaged.
I am for protecting our environment-- this Earth is likely the only planet we will ever inhabit, we can't trash it out and then move on, unless it is in the afterlife. I am not in support of extensive space exploration.
I am opposed to capital punishment except in the case of mass murder.
I am in favor of equalizing educational opportunity-- on a state-by state basis. The culture of each state should be recognized. That is one of the reasons why I am in favor of tuition vouchers-- one cultural entity should not impose their ideal for education on all others within each state.

As you can see, it all averages into independent centrist. You may call it whatever you will.

[_MCB]

I am for the govt bailing out big businesses; because the govt would temporarily have the right to fix them, then the businesses can pay back the loans. If not, buy-out by another business.

I am opposed to massive tax breaks for the wealthy, while taxing the middle class into poverty.

i am for tax breaks for the elderly who choose to defer Social Security and continue working. I am for raising the retirement age, with easier options for disability for those who find it difficult to keep working.

EA's quiz places me on the north side of liberal.

[_Cylon]

Personally, my shift from political conservatism to liberalism came before my faith crisis, but the same thought processes of looking critically at things I had previously taken for granted led to both.

As to your OP, sock puppet, I do think that the common ground on social issues has a lot to do with people giving a pass to libertarians, as it were. However, for me, I respect the libertarian viewpoint more than the traditional conservative one because I think it's much more internally consistent. "Government should butt out of things" is pretty much how I view the libertarian philosophy, and while I don't agree that approach always leads to optimal outcomes, I respect the fact that true libertarians apply that principle across the board, as opposed to conservatives who say they subscribe to that principle, but then abandon it if it conflicts with their personal moral sensibilities.

Disclaimer: I don't presume to say that all conservatives are like that, but I think it's a fair summary of the type of conservatism that is common within Mormonism.

[_ldsfaqs]

I note that many here that are liberal ex-mos are vocal towards TBMs that are Republican firebrands like bcspace and Droopy, but pretty much leave us libertarians alone.

bcspace and Droopy aren't "Republican firebrands"; they are crypto-fascist crazies and conspiracy theorists.

They are the kinds of lunatics who countenance Birther crap.

These guys give Republicans a bad name.

We have Republicans on this board. I may disagree with them, but they are not out of their gourds like bcspace and Droopy.

More bearing false witness by the liberal and anti-mormon.....

They are NOT "fascists" because such is completely anathema to their and conservative ideology. It's liberals who are fascists.... When was the last time a Conservative tried to "ban" something other than simple common decency laws etc.??? I don't see conservatives trying to ban your light bulbs, ice cream cones, Big Gulps, and 100,000's of other FASCIST LAWS!!!!

LIAR!

I also don't see them believing most of Alex Jones crap OR "birther crap" which are the fringes of Conservative/Libertarian thought!

Again, LIAR!!!

When are you people going to STOP LYING about people!!???

[_MrStakhanovite]

Thanks for the level headed response ldsfaqs.

[_ldsfaqs]

Thanks for the level headed response ldsfaqs.

Simple truth.....

I don't lie. I don't know what the problem is with the rest of you.

Oh, and my response WAS "level headed". It was entirely factual and truthful.

lev·el·head·ed   [lev-uhl-hed-id]
adjective
having common sense and sound judgment; sensible.

It was full of contempt, but it was level headed.

[_Equality]

Oh, and my response WAS "level headed". It was entirely factual and truthful.

lev·el·head·ed   [lev-uhl-hed-id]
adjective
having common sense and sound judgment; sensible.

It was full of contempt, but it was level headed.

Again, LIAR!!!

When are you people going to STOP LYING about people!!???