For former Mormons who became atheists

[_Lightworker]

NOT(observable, repeatable, and measurable) = fictions

Simply not true. Besides, mystical experiences are accessible and attainable with spiritual practice.

[_just me]

NOT(observable, repeatable, and measurable) = fictions

Simply not true. Besides, mystical experiences are accessible and attainable with spiritual practice.

Not for everyone.

[_Alfredo]

I feel like setting everyone straight in this thread... anyone think I can do it?

[_SteelHead]

please, prove
NOT(observable, repeatable, and measurable) = fictions

First, I never made the assertion so I feel no need to prove it.

Second, Please prove there is a god. Or anything "supernatural" for that matter. God is an invention of man's mind. Hence fiction.

[_LittleNipper]

please, prove
NOT(observable, repeatable, and measurable) = fictions

First, I never made the assertion so I feel no need to prove it.

Second, Please prove there is a god. Or anything "supernatural" for that matter. God is an invention of man's mind. Hence fiction.

Life is not an invention of man's mind. Man's mind is not an invention of man either. Hence, no fiction without the reality of God.

[_Themis]

God just showed up one day to the evil atheist tobin.

God does things on God's terms, not ours. If someone needs a spiritual experience to grow and learn love then they will get it exactly when they need it. Not when they think they need it (that is like a kid thinking they need candy), only when it is wisdom. The analogy of wise heavenly parents is a good way to look at it I think. If a person will benefit from belief in Mormonism, God will show love and light in the Mormon way. It has a lot of love and light in it. Some people need structure to learn how to love, and this is the divine purpose of religion it seems. That is the key in Moroni's promise, "if it be wisdom".

While there are problems with it, the problem I see with Tobin is his condescending and negative attitude towards those who no longer believe in God. This does not fit with someone who is supposed to have been an atheist and God then showed up. If he is supposed to be learning to love he is not doing well in this area. As for "if it be wisdom", I find this to be used more as an excuse.

[_Themis]

Life is not an invention of man's mind. Man's mind is not an invention of man either. Hence, no fiction without the reality of God.

Sure it is. You are just an invention of my mind, and only for entertainment so we could have some great illogical statements like the one above.

[_SteelHead]

Nipper,
By your definition or reality....... Which god? I prefer Exu over Jesus. He (Exu) is just much funner to hang with.

[_Themis]

Logic and reason can go a long way here, there is quite a bit of evidence for a God or what can be called that. I believe in multiple unified Gods personally, kind of like the Elohim concept (the "I'm" makes it plural in Hebrew"). Many Gods that are manifestations of the one God. It is a paradox. I think the best logical evidence for God is to study mystics cross culturally and see how similar their revelations are. Even that can only get a person so far. One has to have a mystical experience themselves to understand beyond reason.

Jesus contrasts the reason of human intellect with the mystical experience when he says "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Here is a wise teaching too: "...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14-15

Could you describe what knowledge you think you have obtained as well as how you obtained it. I assume this would be the spiritual or mystical experience.

[_Themis]

Simply not true. Besides, mystical experiences are accessible and attainable with spiritual practice.

Not for everyone.

I think this is true. Not everyone has the same ability to create the spiritual experience. Some it comes very easy, while others can't get one to save their lives even though they will do the same things others do. Why should one consider the spiritual/mystical experience to be from some unseen deity.