A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

[_LDS truthseeker]

The authors of Mormon Think seem to be oblivious of the HC. Joseph Smith states the following:

HC Vol 1 Ch 3 Pg 21

In the meantime, while Martin Harris was gone with the writings, I went to visit my father's family at Manchester. I continued there for a short season, and then returned to my place in Pennsylvania. Immediately after my return home, I was walking out a little distance, when, behold, the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again--for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings, which he lost by transgression--and I inquired of the Lord through it, and obtained the following: (D&C 3 follows)

Per FAIR and repeated in that section along with link:

Thus, "it" (Joseph's gift) was restored to him, but there is no indication that the Nephite interpreters (Urim and Thummim) were also returned, Joseph having also lost "them." That is, after repenting, Joseph would recover his seer stones, but apparently not the the Urim and Thummim. Some Church sources have seen this as the point at which Joseph received the seer stone for the first time, but this is likely incorrect. http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_seer_stones


Let me clear something up: There is some debate upon this issue - church sources and even apologists conflict with each other on whether or not the urim and thummim was returned to Joseph Smith. We wrote to apologists and got two different answers. Church sources also conflict. So the only fair thing is to give references to several different viewpoints, which MT does and people can research it to their hearts content. We give our opinion as we are constantly asked and since we have looked at both sides but the various accounts are shown for readers to make up their own mind.

[_Drifting]

Per FAIR and repeated in that section along with link:

Thus, "it" (Joseph's gift) was restored to him, but there is no indication that the Nephite interpreters (Urim and Thummim) were also returned, Joseph having also lost "them." That is, after repenting, Joseph would recover his seer stones, but apparently not the the Urim and Thummim. Some Church sources have seen this as the point at which Joseph received the seer stone for the first time, but this is likely incorrect. http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_seer_stones


Let me clear something up: There is some debate upon this issue - church sources and even apologists conflict with each other on whether or not the urim and thummim was returned to Joseph Smith. We wrote to apologists and got two different answers. Church sources also conflict. So the only fair thing is to give references to several different viewpoints, which MT does and people can research it to their hearts content. We give our opinion as we are constantly asked and since we have looked at both sides but the various accounts are shown for readers to make up their own mind.

Tobin, thanks for opening the door...

[_Bob Loblaw]

Tobin, thanks for opening the door...

The problem is simple. The facts are not on the side of the LDS church. If they were, the church would welcome scrutiny, but the church wants scrutiny about as much as Boyd K. Packer wants to be left in a room with why me and light cotton.

[_Tobin]

The authors of Mormon Think seem to be oblivious of the HC. Joseph Smith states the following:

HC Vol 1 Ch 3 Pg 21

In the meantime, while Martin Harris was gone with the writings, I went to visit my father's family at Manchester. I continued there for a short season, and then returned to my place in Pennsylvania. Immediately after my return home, I was walking out a little distance, when, behold, the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again--for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings, which he lost by transgression--and I inquired of the Lord through it, and obtained the following: (D&C 3 follows)

Per FAIR and repeated in that section along with link:

Thus, "it" (Joseph's gift) was restored to him, but there is no indication that the Nephite interpreters (Urim and Thummim) were also returned, Joseph having also lost "them." That is, after repenting, Joseph would recover his seer stones, but apparently not the the Urim and Thummim. Some Church sources have seen this as the point at which Joseph received the seer stone for the first time, but this is likely incorrect. http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_seer_stones


Let me clear something up: There is some debate upon this issue - church sources and even apologists conflict with each other on whether or not the urim and thummim was returned to Joseph Smith. We wrote to apologists and got two different answers. Church sources also conflict. So the only fair thing is to give references to several different viewpoints, which MT does and people can research it to their hearts content. We give our opinion as we are constantly asked and since we have looked at both sides but the various accounts are shown for readers to make up their own mind.

You'll NOTE that I DID NOT make ANY claim about FAIR being correct (so why are you bringing it up?!?) nor do I care about what what any Mormon apologists says or doesn't say. We have the account presumably from Joseph Smith himself stating he got them back. There is no need to wander off speculating about what he used instead or how he translated without them when we have the CLEAR citation above and he states he got them back.

[_Bob Loblaw]

You'll NOTE that I DID NOT make ANY claim about FAIR being correct (so why are you bringing it up?!?) nor do I care about what what any Mormon apologists says or doesn't say. We have the account presumably from Joseph Smith himself stating he got them back. There is no need to wander off speculating about what he used instead or how he translated without them when we have the CLEAR citation above and he states he got them back.

The problem, of course, is that Joseph Smith said different things about it. You want to take one statement and make it definitive without context and without acknowledging any other statements or evidence. That's far more dishonest than anything MormonThink has done but then that's not really a surprise to anyone.

[_Tobin]

Tobin, thanks for opening the door...

The problem is simple. The facts are not on the side of the LDS church. If they were, the church would welcome scrutiny, but the church wants scrutiny about as much as Boyd K. Packer wants to be left in a room with why me and light cotton.

You know you aren't going to get anywhere with me by making that argument. I think the truth is important and should be embraced. And since I believe the Church is a man-made organization, I don't care what they want or don't want. I'm more interested in what God wants instead - and I would think God would want us to tell the truth and acknowledge it.

[_Tobin]

You'll NOTE that I DID NOT make ANY claim about FAIR being correct (so why are you bringing it up?!?) nor do I care about what what any Mormon apologists says or doesn't say. We have the account presumably from Joseph Smith himself stating he got them back. There is no need to wander off speculating about what he used instead or how he translated without them when we have the CLEAR citation above and he states he got them back.

The problem, of course, is that Joseph Smith said different things about it. You want to take one statement and make it definitive without context and without acknowledging any other statements or evidence. That's far more dishonest than anything MormonThink has done but then that's not really a surprise to anyone.

Then they should at the very least provide the citation to the HC and other sources if they dispute what Joseph Smith states there.

[_Bob Loblaw]

You know you aren't going to get anywhere with me by making that argument. I think the truth is important and should be embraced. And since I believe the Church is a man-made organization, I don't care what they want or don't want. I'm more interested in what God wants instead - and I would think God would want us to tell the truth and acknowledge it.

Then why don't you? Why keep repeating the same ridiculous non sequiturs and lame excuses? And why accuse people of lying or misrepresenting when they are presenting the truth?

[_Drifting]

You know you aren't going to get anywhere with me by making that argument. I think the truth is important and should be embraced. And since I believe the Church is a man-made organization, I don't care what they want or don't want. I'm more interested in what God wants instead - and I would think God would want us to tell the truth and acknowledge it.

Sounds like you believe God endorses Mormonthink...

[_Bob Loblaw]

Then they should at the very least provide the citation to the HC and other sources if they dispute what Joseph Smith states there.

You do realize that Joseph Smith referred to his seer stone as "Urim and Thummim," right?