A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

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_Tobin
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _Tobin »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Tobin wrote:You know you aren't going to get anywhere with me by making that argument. I think the truth is important and should be embraced. And since I believe the Church is a man-made organization, I don't care what they want or don't want. I'm more interested in what God wants instead - and I would think God would want us to tell the truth and acknowledge it.


Then why don't you? Why keep repeating the same ridiculous non sequiturs and lame excuses? And why accuse people of lying or misrepresenting when they are presenting the truth?


1) I just did.
2) I don't see what is ridiculous, lame, or illogical about the citation I made. It seems rather straightforward. I'd like you to show how it isn't.
3) Because when you don't provide citations to the HC (we ARE talking about Mormon history here after all) about this matter and Joseph Smith actually makes a statement about it, I believe that is a misrepresentation of the facts (or facts you should be aware of at the very least).
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Tobin
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _Tobin »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Tobin wrote:Then they should at the very least provide the citation to the HC and other sources if they dispute what Joseph Smith states there.


You do realize that Joseph Smith referred to his seer stone as "Urim and Thummim," right?


And presumably you know what he received back I suppose?!? Were you there? I seriously doubt that. Without some evidence to the contrary, we'll need to take his word for it.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Drifting
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _Drifting »

Tobin wrote:1) I just did.
2) I don't see what is ridiculous, lame, or illogical about the citation I made. It seems rather straightforward. I'd like you to show how it isn't.
3) Because when you don't provide citations to the HC (we ARE talking about Mormon history here after all) about this matter and Joseph Smith actually makes a statement about it, I believe that is a misrepresentation of the facts (or facts you should be aware of at the very least).



Did Joseph write the HC?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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_sock puppet
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _sock puppet »

Bob Loblaw wrote:the church wants scrutiny about as much as Boyd K. Packer wants to be left in a room with why me and light cotton.


Well, I want Boyd K. Packer left in a room with why me and light cotton, as long as no one else is in the room.
_LDS truthseeker
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _LDS truthseeker »

Tobin wrote:
Then they should at the very least provide the citation to the HC and other sources if they dispute what Joseph Smith states there.


If you would be so kind as to furnish me with the links, I will have someone add those links to that section.
_Madison54
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _Madison54 »

Drifting wrote:Did Joseph write the HC?

I believe the Tanners proved that he didn't:

Written by Joseph Smith?

In 1965 we published a book entitled Changes in Joseph Smith's History. In this book we showed that thousands of words were added, deleted, or changed since Joseph Smith's History of the Church was first published.


New Discoveries

Since we published our book, Changes in Joseph Smith's History, a great deal of information has come to light that supports our conclusions concerning the falsification of Joseph Smith's history. For instance, a microfilm copy of the original handwritten manuscript of Joseph Smith's History, Book A-1 and part of B-1, was given to us. This manuscript is the basis for the History of the Church up to the year 1835. Mormon leaders were very upset about this matter because this film provided devastating evidence against Joseph Smith's history. Recently, we became aware of the fact that the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints had traded microfilm copies of documents with the Mormon church and that they had films of all of the original handwritten manuscripts of Joseph Smith's history. We had only a few days to examine the documents, but a preliminary examination clearly reveals the duplicity of the early Mormon historians. Now that we have had a brief look at the entire manuscript of Joseph Smith's History—i.e., books A-1 through F-1—we must conclude that the history is in a deplorable state. Thousands of words—sometimes entire pages—have been crossed out so that they could be deleted from the printed version. On the other hand, the films show that many pages of material were interpolated after Joseph Smith's death.

And....

Over Sixty Percent Written After Joseph Smith's Death

For a number of years there was complete silence, but in 1971 Dean C. Jessee, of the LDS church historian's office, published an article that contained some very startling admissions. We were very pleased that this article verified our contention that Joseph Smith did not finish his History of the Church and that it was actually completed after his death. Mr. Jessee stated:

Not until Willard Richards was appointed secretary to Joseph Smith in December 1842 was any significant progress made on the History. At the time he began writing, not more than 157 pages had been completed, covering events up to November 1, 1831. By May 8, 1843, he had written 114 pages beyond W. W. Phelps' last entry. At the time of Joseph Smith's death, the narrative was written to August 5, 1838....

By February 4, 1846, the day the books were packed for the journey west, the History had been completed to March 1, 1843.... resumption of work on the History occurred on "Dec. 1, 1853 [when] Dr. Willard Richards wrote one line of History being sick at the time—and was never able to do any more." ...

The remainder of Joseph Smith's History of the Church from March 1, 1843 to August 8, 1844, was completed under the direction of George A. Smith....

The Joseph Smith History was finished in August 1856, seventeen years after it was begun (Brigham Young University Studies, Summer 1971, pp. 466, 469, 470, 472).

Dean C. Jessee frankly admits that the manuscript was only completed to page 812 at the time of Joseph Smith's death (Ibid., p. 457). Since there were almost 2,200 pages, this would mean that over sixty percent of Joseph Smith's history was not compiled during his lifetime!

As we had suspected, Willard Richards played a prominent part in making up this bogus history after Joseph Smith's death in June, 1844. Dean C. Jessee said that "Bullock became the chief scribe under Willard Richards when work resumed on the Joseph Smith History in 1845" (Ibid., p. 456).

In his diary Thomas Bullock admitted that he helped Willard Richards in "preparing Church History."
_Drifting
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _Drifting »

Madison54 wrote:
Drifting wrote:Did Joseph write the HC?

I believe the Tanners proved that he didn't:

Written by Joseph Smith?

In 1965 we published a book entitled Changes in Joseph Smith's History. In this book we showed that thousands of words were added, deleted, or changed since Joseph Smith's History of the Church was first published.


New Discoveries

Since we published our book, Changes in Joseph Smith's History, a great deal of information has come to light that supports our conclusions concerning the falsification of Joseph Smith's history. For instance, a microfilm copy of the original handwritten manuscript of Joseph Smith's History, Book A-1 and part of B-1, was given to us. This manuscript is the basis for the History of the Church up to the year 1835. Mormon leaders were very upset about this matter because this film provided devastating evidence against Joseph Smith's history. Recently, we became aware of the fact that the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints had traded microfilm copies of documents with the Mormon church and that they had films of all of the original handwritten manuscripts of Joseph Smith's history. We had only a few days to examine the documents, but a preliminary examination clearly reveals the duplicity of the early Mormon historians. Now that we have had a brief look at the entire manuscript of Joseph Smith's History—i.e., books A-1 through F-1—we must conclude that the history is in a deplorable state. Thousands of words—sometimes entire pages—have been crossed out so that they could be deleted from the printed version. On the other hand, the films show that many pages of material were interpolated after Joseph Smith's death.

And....

Over Sixty Percent Written After Joseph Smith's Death

For a number of years there was complete silence, but in 1971 Dean C. Jessee, of the LDS church historian's office, published an article that contained some very startling admissions. We were very pleased that this article verified our contention that Joseph Smith did not finish his History of the Church and that it was actually completed after his death. Mr. Jessee stated:

Not until Willard Richards was appointed secretary to Joseph Smith in December 1842 was any significant progress made on the History. At the time he began writing, not more than 157 pages had been completed, covering events up to November 1, 1831. By May 8, 1843, he had written 114 pages beyond W. W. Phelps' last entry. At the time of Joseph Smith's death, the narrative was written to August 5, 1838....

By February 4, 1846, the day the books were packed for the journey west, the History had been completed to March 1, 1843.... resumption of work on the History occurred on "Dec. 1, 1853 [when] Dr. Willard Richards wrote one line of History being sick at the time—and was never able to do any more." ...

The remainder of Joseph Smith's History of the Church from March 1, 1843 to August 8, 1844, was completed under the direction of George A. Smith....

The Joseph Smith History was finished in August 1856, seventeen years after it was begun (Brigham Young University Studies, Summer 1971, pp. 466, 469, 470, 472).

Dean C. Jessee frankly admits that the manuscript was only completed to page 812 at the time of Joseph Smith's death (Ibid., p. 457). Since there were almost 2,200 pages, this would mean that over sixty percent of Joseph Smith's history was not compiled during his lifetime!

As we had suspected, Willard Richards played a prominent part in making up this bogus history after Joseph Smith's death in June, 1844. Dean C. Jessee said that "Bullock became the chief scribe under Willard Richards when work resumed on the Joseph Smith History in 1845" (Ibid., p. 456).

In his diary Thomas Bullock admitted that he helped Willard Richards in "preparing Church History."


Tobin...yoohoo...Tobin....
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Tobin
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _Tobin »

LDS truthseeker wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Then they should at the very least provide the citation to the HC and other sources if they dispute what Joseph Smith states there.


If you would be so kind as to furnish me with the links, I will have someone add those links to that section.


http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/HTMLHistory/v1c3history.html

p.21

In the meantime, while Martin Harris was gone with the writings, I went to visit my father's family at Manchester. I continued there for a short season, and then returned to my place in Pennsylvania. Immediately after my return home, I was walking out a little distance, when, behold, the former heavenly messenger appeared and handed to me the Urim and Thummim again--for it had been taken from me in consequence of my having wearied the Lord in asking for the privilege of letting Martin Harris take the writings, which he lost by transgression--and I inquired of the Lord through it, and obtained the following:
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Tobin,

You really need to pay attention when you read. You completely missed this bit of pertinent information:

The term Urim and Thummim, while used in this revelation and in the ms text does not appear in early publications of the revelation, nor does it seem to have been used in any contemporary document of the principals. No early ms of this revelation survives apparently. In the 1833 Book of Commandments, verse one read "Now, behold I say unto you, that because you delivered up so many writings, which you had power to translate, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them. . . ." Thus, the words "by the means of the Urim and Thummim" in verse one were not part of this verse in the Book of Commandments; nor was section 17, which also makes use of the term Urim and Thummim, printed in the Book of Commandments. Both section 17 and verse one of section 10, as we now have them, first appeared in the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. Lyndon Cook writes:

While the retroactive placement of the term in section 10 has led to some speculation relative to the Prophet's having the instrument in his possession, a preponderance of evidence confirms the Prophet's own testimony: "With the records was found a curious instrument, which the ancients called 'Urim and Thummim,' which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate" (History of the Church, 4:537 [Wentworth letter]). The problem here seems to be one of terminology, not whether or not the Prophet had possession of an ancient artifact. Until some time after the translation of the Book of Mormon, the sacred instruments may have been referred to as "Interpreters," or "spectacles." It is possible that Joseph Smith's inspired translation of the Bible played some part in designating the translating instrument "Urim and Thummim." The earliest use of the term Urim and Thummim in Mormon literature is in the Evening and Morning Star (January 1833). An article on the Book of Mormon, undoubtedly authored by W. W. Phelps, stated, "It was translated by the gift and power of God, by an unlearned man, through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles--(known, perhaps in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)." [RJS, 17]
[Phelps' speculation that the Old Testament word "Teraphim" refers to an object or objects similar to the Urim and Thummim is wrong. Teraphim were small household idols. Recent studies in regard to Biblical "Urim and Thummim," historically the object of wide speculation, suggest they were similar in character to the "Interpreters" had by Joseph Smith. See notes in JSCOM.]
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_subgenius
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Re: A challenge to the board about Mormon Think...

Post by _subgenius »

Bob Loblaw wrote:I congratulate subgenius on introducing a new level of stupidity into Mormon apologetics. I wouldn't have thought it possible to make even lamer arguments than standard mopologetics, but I stand corrected.

standing corrected is all to familiar for you is it not?
at least now we have an upgrade from your level of it...you seem to have hit rock bottom with stupidity.
Thanks for commenting!
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