Things Changed When Shirt Color Began to Matter

[_Bob Loblaw]

This kind of raving, rabies maddened foam can only come from a unalloyed communist - not incipient - or an intellectually addled contemporary leftist for whom "fascism" is a kind of intellectual spasm that erupts when confronted by anything he cannot defeat through logical argument or to which he has a vague, inchoate, but powerful emotional response.

But, that's Kish.

As opposed to your knee-jerk labeling of everything you disagree with as "leftist." Labels do not interest me in the least--especially when they are used as epithets instead of descriptions.

[Guest]

I agree, Criag. This crap about shirt color is incipient fascism.

To hell with it.

This kind of raving, rabies maddened foam can only come from a unalloyed communist - not incipient - or an intellectually addled contemporary leftist for whom "fascism" is a kind of intellectual spasm that erupts when confronted by anything he cannot defeat through logical argument or to which he has a vague, inchoate, but powerful emotional response.

But, that's Kish.

My God.



edit: To quote Sesame Street, "One of these things is not like the other."

[Guest]

If I were to hazard a guess I'd say that the emphasis on white shirts and ties and conservative dress and grooming standards is a reaction to the rebelliousness of the fifties and sixties, when having a beard or not wearing a tie were seen as deliberate acts of nonconformity.

You are correct. This is a part of the overall, underlying concept behind such things as they transpired in the last third of the 20th century.

It may have made sense back then but these days it seems a little dated and weird.

The revolutionary attitudes and style of the sixties is now the default position of the culture. Its simply been fully domesticated and absorbed into mainstream norms and mores. The grunge movement, which began in the 90s, is still with us, as are Hip Hop, "thug style", body piercing, tattooing, and other cultural Marxist/postmodern cultural forms that are very popular among substantial elements of the culture, increasing in popularity, and which are inconsistent with the gospel and what it is attempting to accomplish within the souls of those who accept it, and what it is trying to model to the deteriorating surrounding culture.

I can't tell you how many times non-members have told me that seeing missionaries on bikes with their white shirts and ties, helmets, and backpacks makes them think our church is a cult.

Yes, Bob, white shirts and ties remind people so much of the Manson Family.

Shall be move back toward reality now?

[_Fence Sitter]

I wouldn't go that far, but I do see a strong emphasis on conformity in dress and grooming that I don't understand. Where did that come from?

I never really thought about it until the other day when my wife and I were driving by a big Evangelical church in town. I live in So Cal. I mentioned how different I found their worship services compared to a LDS Church service in all aspects, such as music, content, decorum during a meeting and even how people dress. She responded that she did not think the way they (the people at the Evangelical church) dressed was as respectful to God as how LDS people dressed. I knew better than to try and figure out why she felt that way but I did ask if she felt wearing pants to any Church meeting LDS or otherwise, by a female, was disrespectful. She said yes.

It isn't until you pull away from a group that you can see some of the more unconventional conventions.

On Edit. I suppose that if you have grown up in a society where wearing a burka is seen as normal, you will find criticism of the burka much ado about nothing.

[_Droopy]

I agree, Criag. This crap about shirt color is incipient fascism.

To hell with it.

This kind of raving, rabies maddened foam can only come from a unalloyed communist - not incipient - or an intellectually addled contemporary leftist for whom "fascism" is a kind of intellectual spasm that erupts when confronted by anything he cannot defeat through logical argument or to which he has a vague, inchoate, but powerful emotional response.

But, that's Kish.

My God.

Don't swear. Its a bad habit.

[_Bob Loblaw]

Where have I been impolite?

You've repeatedly insulted my intellect. That is generally seen as impolite in society.

You are correct. This is a part of the overall, underlying concepts behind such things.

What do "this" and "such things" refer to? There are no antecedents.

The revolutionary attitudes and style of the sixties is not the default position of the culture. Its simply been fully domesticated and absorbed into mainstream norms and mores. The grunge movement, which began in the 90s, is still with us, as are Hip Hop, "thug style", body piercing, tattooing, and other cultural Marxist/postmodern cultural forms that are inconsistent with the gospel and what it is attempting to accomplish within the souls of those who accept it, and what it is trying to model to the deteriorating surrounding culture.

One can eschew the IBM employee look without being part of the counterculture. I just find the particular reaction of the church to be interesting. There are a lot of ways to symbolize righteousness and spirituality, but the church has chosen a particular look from a bygone era. I understand why it arose but find it fascinating that these "standards" have become such a cultural touchstone and are so fiercely defended.

Yes, Bob, white shirts and ties reminds people so much of the Manson Family.

Shall be move back toward reality now?

I've been told that on several occasions. More than once I've had someone ask me if there were some special symbolism to the backpacks, helmets, and bicycles in conjunction with the white shirts and ties. I don't appreciate your subtly insinuating that I'm lying about what people have said to me. As I said I think I made a mistake in assuming you were interested in a polite discussion. I'm learning how things work around here--probably too slowly for my own good.

[_Droopy]

But its only the truth. Kish probably has no idea, if he's a rather common American leftist, what the term "fascism" even means, at any depth. Its a trope and all-purpose epithet that progressives have been using against those they disagree with only since the early 1940s, for reasons I will not go into here.

[_Droopy]

What do "this" and "such things" refer to? There are no antecedents.

Why do Jews wear a skullcap, Bob. Indeed, why does the Pope wear one?

Why do Buddhist monks shave their heads?

One can eschew the IBM employee look without being part of the counterculture. I just find the particular reaction of the church to be interesting. There are a lot of ways to symbolize righteousness and spirituality, but the church has chosen a particular look from a bygone era.

The idea that white shirts and ties and short hair are from a bygone era is nothing short of silly. I think you need to get out and about a bit more. Where do you live, in a tent in People's Park?

I've been told that on several occasions. More than once I've had someone ask me if there were some special symbolism to the backpacks, helmets, and bicycles in conjunction with the white shirts and ties. I don't appreciate your subtly insinuating that I'm lying about what people have said to me.

Then don't, but I've never been asked that by anyone - in 40 years.

As I said I think I made a mistake in assuming you were interested in a polite discussion. I'm learning how things work around here--probably too slowly for my own good.

[_Bob Loblaw]

But its only the truth. Kish probably has no idea, if he's a rather common American leftist, what the term "fascism" even means, at any depth. Its a trope that progressives have been using only since the early 1940s, for reasons I will not go into here.

I'm no leftist, but to me one of the distinguishing characteristics of fascism is the subordination of the individual to the group or institution. In that respect, fascism is indistinguishable from Stalinism and other forms of authoritarian government. Dress and grooming are used as symbols of belonging in fascism and Stalinism, etc., as membership in the institution becomes one's identity rather than one's individuality.

Without meaning to offend I believe this is also what is going on in Mormonism. Clearly the individual is subordinate to the institution, and one's value and identity come from membership and participation in the institution. The uniform is different but serves the same purpose.

Does this mean I believe Mormons are evil or want to persecute their enemies? No, of course not. But there is clearly a strong authoritarian streak in the church that has some obvious parallels to authoritarianism/fascism and I think that's what Kish was referring to.

[_Blixa]

Man, I sure love Honey Boo-Boo!