Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _Droopy »

Any italics or boldface type are mine (please pay attention to the italics. You know who you are).


Mitt Romney and Bain Capital--What liberals still do not grasp

Eric Golub


LOS ANGELES, May 24, 2012 – President Obama insisted recently that Governor Mitt Romney's work at Bain Capital is what the 2012 election is all about. What Mr. Obama still fails to admit is that he and his campaign shills have absolutely no idea what Bain Capital actually does, or what Mitt Romney actually did.

Every person anywhere in this world commenting on politics or business should be forced to honestly answer a three question test. Then their answers should be reviewed by unbiased sources.

1) Do you know anything?

2) Do you know how to do anything?

3) Have you ever done anything?

Any drunk in the town square can be an armchair quarterback. The danger is when armchair quarterbacks actually have a say in how the team is run. This is unfortunate in sports but downright destructive in politics.

During the George W. Bush presidency, liberals foamed at the mouth over Enron. Enron and President Bush were both from Texas. Enron went bankrupt, proving in leftist minds that George W. Bush was corrupt. Yet the one question most liberal critics of President Bush could not answer dealt with the business of Enron. Liberals secretly had no idea what Enron actually did.

The answer most often given was "something with oil," which meant President Bush was a criminal because he was an oilman and oil was evil. Eventually some liberals learned that Enron was an energy company and not an oil company. They insisted oil and energy are the same thing, except they are not.

In order to try to lose the war in Iraq, a non-scandal involving Halliburton was invented. Halliburton became a symbol for corruption since Vice President Dick Cheney used to work there. Yet when pressed further, many liberals had absolutely no idea what Halliburton actually did. The answer again involved people mumbling about the oil business. Yet anybody who bothered to educate themselves before speaking would know that Halliburton had a unique skill set that only one other company (Schlumberger, a French company) possessed. They won contracts not due to corruption, but because they were able to actually do the work. Their critics had no idea what that work actually was.

When liberals run out of creative ways to attack "big oil," they then go after "Wall Street." Barack Obama and Occupy Wall Street have attacked various employees in the financial services sector as evil without having a clue as to who they are or what they do.

This is where liberals sneer and ask "How do you know we have no idea what these people do?"

Because I listen to, observe, and ask them.

Barack Obama acts as if he has no idea what a hedge fund is or what it does. Hedge funds have "something to do with business" in the same way Halliburton has something to do with oil.

Sure, people could right now go to Google or Wikipedia and belatedly learn, but pretending to have knowledge after spouting off is as useful as knowing how to fix a sink after it has blown up and taken the entire house with it.

Anybody who does not know the difference between a stockbroker, an investment banker, a money manager, or a financial planner should be banned from discussing them, much less criticizing them.

Watching liberal academics pretending to understand the real world and how businesses work is a part of life that will never go away, like insects and tofu. What is unforgivable is those pretending to understand business attacking Wall Street in general and Governor Mitt Romney's work at Bain Capital in particular. The very essence of capitalism is under assault, and defending it at all costs is the only acceptable option.

For those who have let the desire to win an election get in the way of common sense, attacks on Governor Romney for being a venture capitalist are now the requirement for those trying to curry favor with the left wing of the Democratic Party.

The last few days saw several Democrats from Corey Booker to Harold Ford to Deval Patrick try to stop the reflexive anti-business madness of the Obama administration.

Like President Obama, Most people have no idea what a venture capitalist does. At the risk of dumbing it down for those who desperately need this, venture capitalists risk their money in the hopes of making more money. A venture is a risk. Capital is money. Sometimes these risks work. Sometimes they fail. Mr. Romney approached failing companies with the intent of turning them around. Sometimes he failed, but he succeeded more than he failed, and became wealthy through his successes.

The liberal myth is that Mitt Romney played the Danny Devito role of Larry the Liquidator. He took companies, stripped them dry, kept all of the money for himself, and destroyed everyone else. The left would have no idea how to explain how this actually works, but it sounds good. The problem with this "analysis" is that people and businesses have reputations. If this narrative of Mr. Romney as Conan the Financial Destroyer were accurate, potential clients would catch on after a few decades and stop doing business with him and Bain Capital. They are still in business precisely because their track record is quite good. Critics of Romney and Bain Capital know they dislike him and the firm, but cannot exactly articulate why.


Also, Governor Romney cannot and should not be responsible for any successful or failed deals that happened at Bain Capital before or after he left. Some leftist critics blame President George W. Bush for failing to deal with al Qaeda during the Clinton and Obama presidencies. Logic should remove those criticisms. Only the deals that occurred during the Romney tenure should matter. He had a 78% success rate, which is slightly better than the almost 0% success rate of the Obama environmental gambling spree.

So how did Governor Romney help create successful ventures? One way to turn around a business is to grow revenues. Yet what is also often needed is cutting costs. This involves firing people.

The nerve of Mitt Romney! How dare he have the gall to invest his own money in a business and then demand to have a say in how that business was being run!

If he were "sensitive," he could have been like Barack Obama. He could risk taxpayer funds instead of his own money, like Mr. Obama did with Solyndra. Solyndra and many other environmental gambles went bankrupt, and one thousand workers were fired. Yet Mr. Obama lost nothing.

Barack Obama presides over a bloated government that spends into oblivion, and dead weight remains the albatross around the neck of productivity.

Mr. Obama refuses to cut costs in anything (except defense). This is why his enterprise is on the verge of collapse.

Liberals want to live in a world where nobody ever gets fired and people are guaranteed stability, safety, and security. That world exists. It is called Europe, embodied by France, and it is falling apart at the seams. Unemployment is sky high and work stoppages and riots are continental hobbies, in addition to 35 hour work weeks with frequent breaks.

So while Barack Obama encourages America to become a nation of parasites, Mitt Romney has a track record of creating wealth for himself and many others.

Nobody on the Republican side should ever expect anti-business liberals to grasp this. Conservatives can be forgiven if academics with lifetime job security regardless of quality remain uninformed skeptics.

Anyone with a fully functioning brain should understand that what Mitt Romney did for a living is good for America. Even more important, Mitt Romney's career is what this entire nation used to be about when it worked properly.


Regardless of whether one supports legalizing drugs, perhaps it is high time that political candidates be publicly drug-tested. Athletes are not allowed to take the field if they fail drug tests. Maybe America would be better off if politicians acting under a haze be forced to suspend their campaigns when they stop making sense.

The business of America is business. Business is legal.

When a drunk driver kills somebody, America does not ban cars.

When a madman uses a gun in a crime, conservatives understand that the problem is the criminal and not the gun.

While heart disease is a problem, conservatives do not try to shut down food and beverage companies.

Capitalism creates jobs. Venture capitalism creates wealth. The expression "nothing ventured, nothing gained" means exactly that. Venture capitalists should be celebrated, not scorned.

Those wishing to criticize Governor Romney on actual issues based on ideology should do so. Those wishing to attack him for working hard should try doing what he did. He succeeded where most people fail. Top talent is called that for a reason.

For those angry at Mitt Romney while pretending to understand what he actually did, remember that three question test.

Do you know anything? Do you know how to do anything? Have you ever done anything?

Of course not. So please sit down, be quiet, and stop attacking capitalism and wealth creation. Being poor is bad. Being ignorant is worse. Being both are contagious, and the spread of that disease has already destroyed Europe.

The cure is so simple. America needs more people with capital who have the guts and desire to venture.



Bravo! This is, in thimble form, a priceless antidote to those who, like Beastie and others here, have no idea whatsoever what Bain Capital does, how it functions, or what the actual dynamics of its methods and techniques are, and to those who wish to send both the ignorant and the already educated to places like Rolling Stone :rolleyes: to an essay that, precisely, is nothing but a polemical screed by an economic illiterate who quite obviously has no idea what Bain actually does or how it works and who's claims are a potpourri of his own biases, prejudices and nostrums, bereft of actual substantive knowledge, or who, in classic postmodern fashion, see serious economic and political critique in a pop radical chic Hollywood screed made by a Limousine Marxist hypocrite with no more understanding of legitimate economics than my cat.

The Democratic party would disintegrate tomorrow, before our very eyes, without the ravening passions of class envy at its very base propping up its pseudo-moral appeals to "compassion" and concern for "the most vulnerable among us" and other phony, sanctimonious drek.

Those of us who can see through the historic Left and its pretensions to humanitarian morality and intellectual superiority do not take lightly the very real danger to humanity and civilization it poses, and has posed for some two centuries.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _Gadianton »

I thought this was pretty hilarious, check this out:

Some Conservative guy not doing Romney any favors wrote:When a drunk driver kills somebody, America does not ban cars.

When a madman uses a gun in a crime, conservatives understand that the problem is the criminal and not the gun.

While heart disease is a problem, conservatives do not try to shut down food and beverage companies.


Yet...

Same conservative as above wrote:Anybody who does not know the difference between a stockbroker, an investment banker, a money manager, or a financial planner should be banned from discussing them, much less criticizing them.


If a liberal who does not know anything about business wishes to express his opinion on business, government should step in and gag the person. Drunk driving, murder, and obesity, we all agree these are bad things, but let's not get carried away with remedies that limit personal freedoms. But bad mouthing big business? Now that's another story, let's make sure we error on the side of caution here...lol

Capitalism creates jobs. Venture capitalism creates wealth. The expression "nothing ventured, nothing gained" means exactly that. Venture capitalists should be celebrated, not scorned.


This is not entirely true. I do not think this conservative pundit has much experience himself in the business world. A very large number of venture capitalists are seasoned professionals at making money through venture capitalism without much personal risk. Rather, they have the connections, a tiny bit of imagination where they come up with some opportunity that seems plausible based on current success stories, and they are fantastic salesmen. They know how to get backing from big business, figure out a way to filter initial investments into big personal gains right out of the gate, get the paperwork signed and a board put together and then take off and do something else. The large investors suckered in are often out of their depth, not having a good understanding of what they're getting into but worried they're going to lose out on their fair share of the pie and essentially impulse buy. I've watched a whole string of such businesses erect and eventually fail down the road, with the "venture capitalists" all the richer. Assymetric information is a huge problem in venture capitalism. It's not so easy to fix either. Regulatory oversight isn't the answer per se, as adding red tape to the equation ensures that professional venture capitalists are the only players on the field due to their experience, money, connections, and lawyers who can keep compliant as opposed to the guy in his garage with no prior experience. Assymetric information is a huge problem in venture capital, and it's by no means clear at all how to fix this problem. A red tape nightmare isn't the answer, but neither is letting professional venture capitalism run wild.

The problem is far more complicated than these pundit conservatives portray it.
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _beastie »

Gadianton wrote:This is not entirely true. I do not think this conservative pundit has much experience himself in the business world. A very large number of venture capitalists are seasoned professionals at making money through venture capitalism without much personal risk. Rather, they have the connections, a tiny bit of imagination where they come up with some opportunity that seems plausible based on current success stories, and they are fantastic salesmen. They know how to get backing from big business, figure out a way to filter initial investments into big personal gains right out of the gate, get the paperwork signed and a board put together and then take off and do something else. The large investors suckered in are often out of their depth, not having a good understanding of what they're getting into but worried they're going to lose out on their fair share of the pie and essentially impulse buy. I've watched a whole string of such businesses erect and eventually fail down the road, with the "venture capitalists" all the richer. Assymetric information is a huge problem in venture capitalism. It's not so easy to fix either. Regulatory oversight isn't the answer per se, as adding red tape to the equation ensures that professional venture capitalists are the only players on the field due to their experience, money, connections, and lawyers who can keep compliant as opposed to the guy in his garage with no prior experience. Assymetric information is a huge problem in venture capital, and it's by no means clear at all how to fix this problem. A red tape nightmare isn't the answer, but neither is letting professional venture capitalism run wild.

The problem is far more complicated than these pundit conservatives portray it.


Speaking of risk-free ventures, Mitt had a sweet bargain in that regard.

To understand the confusing conditions under which Mitt Romney left Bain Capital, you need to understand the unusual deal he struck when he was hired to run it.

Bill Bain’s idea was simple. His firm, Bain & Co., was making lots of money by advising companies in exchange for fees. The fact that it was making money was proof that its staff understood what it took to make struggling companies successful. So why not eliminate the middleman? Rather than advising companies for a fee only to watch the current management reap the big profits, Bain Capital would take over troubled companies, manage them to profitability and reap the rewards itself. And Bill Bain knew exactly who he wanted to run this venture: Mitt Romney.
And then Romney stunned his boss by saying no.

As Michael Kranish and Scott Helman, authors of “The Real Romney,” describe it, Romney “explained to Bain that he didn’t want to risk his position, earnings and reputation on an experiment. He found the offer appealing but didn’t want to make the decision in a ‘light or flippant manner.’ So Bain sweetened the pot. He guaranteed that if the experiment failed Romney would get his old job and salary back, plus any raises he would have earned during his absence. Still, Romney worried about the impact on his reputation if he proved unable to do the job. Again the pot was sweetened. Bain promised that, if necessary, he would craft a cover story saying that Romney’s return to Bain & Co. was needed because of his value as a consultant. ‘So,’ Bain explained, ‘there was no professional or financial risk.’ This time Romney said yes.”

Romney managed, in other words, that most unusual of career transitions: a move entirely without risk. And, as he tells it, he did the same thing when he left Bain Capital.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezr ... with-bain/
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _beastie »

by the way, I'm not criticizing Bain. I'm criticizing those who summarize Mitt's Bain career by claiming he was a "job creator." He was a wealth creator. Sometimes that involved creating jobs, sometimes it involved lay-offs to increase productivity. Sometimes the companies went bankrupt while Bain still collected massive fees.

Droopy is just twisting himself into a pretzel because he doesn't want to admit his goof on the other thread.

Droopy:
It is not possible to create new wealth for investors without creating the jobs in the various productive ventures that create that wealth (as capital gains or dividend income) for investors.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _Droopy »

beastie wrote:by the way, I'm not criticizing Bain. I'm criticizing those who summarize Mitt's Bain career by claiming he was a "job creator." He was a wealth creator.


Your intellectual credibility has just capsized and plunged into the ice deep yet again. We've seen this happen many times before, so no surprise here.

The round number of jobs Romney has created/saved is now common knowledge. Your lack - or pretended lack - of that common knowledge is telling indeed.

Secondly, I'll ask again, how do you create wealth without involving yourself in productive economic activity, and how does productive economic activity proceed without job creation?

Sometimes that involved creating jobs, sometimes it involved lay-offs to increase productivity. Sometimes the companies went bankrupt while Bain still collected massive fees.


Lay-offs to increase productivity are many times what is required to save as many present jobs now as possible so that, as a company recovers and grows, more jobs can be added later. WHAT is the rocket science aspect of this? I'm not at all sure I understand.

Companies that went bankrupt after Bain left the scene after preserving it in the hopes that it would weather the storms of a competitive free market world, that would have gone bankrupt much sooner, is nothing more than the fee market (you and me and hundreds of millions of other consumers) weeding out business that are not viable and clearing the ground for future business that are. No one minimizes job losses or lay-offs for the people who experience them, but businesses are not charities, and cannot be run as such (if so, we would all be poor as church mice and there would be little anyone could do about it), and the genius of capitalism is precisely the net economic expansion of the economy and growth in job creation through "creative destruction;" allowing the market to decide which enterprises succeed and which do not, and placing as few hampering conditions upon entrepreneurship and wealth creation as possible so that, even with the job losses and nonviable enterprises that disappear as consumer desires and valuations change over time, job growth and economic growth continue and the economy expands in infinite directions and in infinite variety.

Droopy is just twisting himself into a pretzel because he doesn't want to admit his goof on the other thread.


There was no goof. The problem is that the vast majority of leftists, from janitors to people with doctoral degrees have less that a kindergarten understanding of basic economics, and are driven to much of their irrational foamings about "the rich" and income inequality etc., by a ravening class envy mentality that history shows is really a take-no-prisoners affair.

It is as wildly irrational as it is ultimately a grave threat to overall human well being.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _beastie »

So if a company lays off workers, that still counts as job creation because, one day, in the future, that will allow some company somewhere to be more productive? Sweet.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:
Speaking of risk-free ventures, Mitt had a sweet bargain in that regard.

To understand the confusing conditions under which Mitt Romney left Bain Capital, you need to understand the unusual deal he struck when he was hired to run it.

Bill Bain’s idea was simple. His firm, Bain & Co., was making lots of money by advising companies in exchange for fees. The fact that it was making money was proof that its staff understood what it took to make struggling companies successful. So why not eliminate the middleman? Rather than advising companies for a fee only to watch the current management reap the big profits, Bain Capital would take over troubled companies, manage them to profitability and reap the rewards itself. And Bill Bain knew exactly who he wanted to run this venture: Mitt Romney.
And then Romney stunned his boss by saying no.

As Michael Kranish and Scott Helman, authors of “The Real Romney,” describe it, Romney “explained to Bain that he didn’t want to risk his position, earnings and reputation on an experiment. He found the offer appealing but didn’t want to make the decision in a ‘light or flippant manner.’ So Bain sweetened the pot. He guaranteed that if the experiment failed Romney would get his old job and salary back, plus any raises he would have earned during his absence. Still, Romney worried about the impact on his reputation if he proved unable to do the job. Again the pot was sweetened. Bain promised that, if necessary, he would craft a cover story saying that Romney’s return to Bain & Co. was needed because of his value as a consultant. ‘So,’ Bain explained, ‘there was no professional or financial risk.’ This time Romney said yes.”

Romney managed, in other words, that most unusual of career transitions: a move entirely without risk. And, as he tells it, he did the same thing when he left Bain Capital.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezr ... with-bain/


Dang! Sounds like a bright guy who drove a hard bargain. Bright guy!
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:So if a company lays off workers, that still counts as job creation because, one day, in the future, that will allow some company somewhere to be more productive? Sweet.


Are layoff somehow evil? They really are part of doing business at times. I have had to fire people for poor performance as well as due to a down turn in business and a need to cut payroll. I hate it either way and lose sleep when I have to do it as well as have high anxiety about it. But at times it has to be done.
_Gadianton
_Emeritus
Posts: 9947
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _Gadianton »

Dang! Sounds like a bright guy who drove a hard bargain. Bright guy!


Absolutely. But if true, it just goes to show that "venture capitalism" isn't this idyllic mechanism for creating wealth via the risk-taking of the venture capitalists. Rich CEO's are very smart people who know how to preserve themselves and free-market economics shouldn't have it any other way except: free markets are supposed to create an environment where self-interests put each other in check such that above average returns on investment are explained by risk exposure. Apparently, this does not work out very well in practice. Interestingly, Warren Buffet essentially leveled the very criticism I'm making here and Beastie has also made as the single most identifiable problem that led to the financial crisis. And that is, CEOs have learned how to avoid taking personal risk in their business ventures. If one comes to believe that insulation from risk does not interfere with market mechanisms, then arguments for socialism can be made as well. What's the difference between admiring a businessman for his skill and cunning at negotiating his way out of the personal risk that should be inherent in his job than admiring a band of laborers for their skill and cunning in negotiating their way out of risk in the guise of a union?
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Attention All Pod People, Morlocks, and Kool-Aid Kids...

Post by _beastie »

Jason Bourne wrote:
beastie wrote:So if a company lays off workers, that still counts as job creation because, one day, in the future, that will allow some company somewhere to be more productive? Sweet.


Are layoff somehow evil? They really are part of doing business at times. I have had to fire people for poor performance as well as due to a down turn in business and a need to cut payroll. I hate it either way and lose sleep when I have to do it as well as have high anxiety about it. But at times it has to be done.


I didn't say lay-offs are evil. My point has been simple. Mitt Romney's job at Bain wasn't to create jobs. It was to create wealth for investors. Sometimes that entailed job creation. Sometimes it didn't. There is nothing wrong with what he did, but it's misleading for his supporters to represent his career as one of "job creating".
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
Post Reply