"Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

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_Sethbag
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _Sethbag »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Sethbag wrote:An Area Authority Seventy is just a successful (in the worldly sense) Mormon who has also played the game inside the church successfully, and climbed up the ladder a few rungs. I see no reason they wouldn't be subject to the same behavior and conditioning that the general TBM population labors under. Indeed, if anything, they would probably epitomize it. They didn't get to be lower-tier Mormon rock stars by going out on a limb and being unique, did they?


You are correct, they probably do epitomize it. But then that is just further proof for consig's theory that the LDS church is all about "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." When people who should know better exemplify the worst behavior you've got some serious problems.

I think that's a pretty good summary. I agree with the OP 100%, and I agree that when people who should know better exemplify the worst problems, we've got serious problems.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_consiglieri
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _consiglieri »

Aristotle Smith wrote:

There are two basic problems with the Sermon on the Mount text in 3 Nephi.

The first problem is text-critical, which means that the words in 3 Nephi do not match the text of the oldest and best Greek Manuscripts. When the KJV was translated, scholars were just beginning to gather old Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. So the base Greek Text the KJV translators used was an amalgam of a few late Greek Texts. In the intervening 400 years scholars have discovered literally thousands of texts, many of which are much older than those used by the KJV. The text of the Sermon on the Mount has had some changes as the better manuscripts have come to light. A great test of prophetic ability would be if the Book of Mormon matched the better, older texts, rather than the texts used for the KJV. They do not, but rather track the KJV text. The most obvious problem is that the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6 does not have the final words, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen." Scholars are unanimous that this was a later addition, but 3 Nephi has this in its text. By the way, if you want an in depth article explaining these issues see New Approaches to the Book of Mormon, chapter 5.

The second problem is source critical, which is the study of the sources used by the gospel writers to craft their respective gospels. There is very good evidence that both Matthew and Luke shared a similar source for the contents of the Sermon on the Mount. However, they did not copy the source blindly, though they share the same themes. This is what accounts for the fact that Matthew's Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5-7) is very similar to Luke's Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:17-49), but not exactly the same. They have a common source, but Matthew and Luke exercised their literary license in what they included and where they put it. The bottom line is that the Sermon on the Mount is a creation of Matthew, while the Sermon on the Plain is a creation of Luke. So the question is: Why is Jesus showing up and quoting verbatim someone else's creation? Even more problematic is that most estimates for the composition date of Matthew put the book as being authored between 70-?



Though I agree with basically everything you have to say here, Aristotle, there is still the strange fact that the Book of Mormon sermon on the mount omits "without a cause" from the injunction to not be angry with your neighbor; an omission I believe is supported by the earliest and best Greek New Testament texts.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Cicero wrote:Thanks Aristotle Smith for the concise summary of the issue. I tried to find an apologetic response on FAIR's site but was not able to locate one; do you happen to know the typical response?


This is the apologetic to the text-critical issues by Royal Skousen.

I've never made it through the whole thing, I keep getting stuck at the following and giving up:

Royal Skousen wrote:There are a number of serious problems with Larson's argument. Consider first his statement that his selection of "all the major late-nineteenth- and twentieth-century critical editions of the Greek New Testament" represents "a diverse range of critical positions" (p. 119). What Larson fails to describe here is the basic unity of all these critical editions, that their practice derives from a single school of textual criticism whose foundation was established by the German scholar Johann Jakob Griesbach in the late eighteenth century. The basic assumption of this school is that in choosing between competing readings, one selects the more difficult and/or shorter reading, when no other explanation seems apparent. Given this assumption, we should not be surprised at the "agreement" between these different critical editions.

Of course, Larson simply assumes that the results of modern New Testament textual criticism are correct and lead us back to the original text of the New Testament. There are several problems here. First of all, there is no way he can demonstrate that the reconstructed text of the critics is in fact the original text. The text that has been reconstructed is based largely on third-to-sixth-century manuscripts, not the original autographs.


In other words, the Book of Mormon is correct because scholars do text criticism wrong. Never mind that text-criticism is the least theologically driven part of studying the Bible (I would say it plays no part, but it's probably played a minor role once or twice) and uses the same techniques as do scholars studying Homer, Virgil, or any other document.

Cicero wrote:I suspect that it would be somewhat like FAIR's short article on the Deutero-Isaiah problem (http://www.fairlds.org/authors/schindler-marc/deutero-isaiah-in-the-book-of-mormon), which essentially asserts that the "higher critics" have it wrong because they misunderstand the nature of prophets and scripture.


The source critical problems are similar to the Deutero-Isaiah problems so the apologetic will be similar. You have to argue something crazy like Jesus really said the final phrase in the Lord's prayer, but then the oldest sources left it out, but the tradition survived until wiser scribes put it back in the proper place, even though all previous scribes had left it out. Whatever.
_consiglieri
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _consiglieri »

why me wrote:
You are absolutely right. The people in that sunday school class were certainly ignorant. It must have been absolute torture for you to sit there and listen to such inferior ignorant people. It is ashame that you could not have raised your hand and give your superior intellect an opportunity to teach the ignorant members some well known truth. But you chose to remain silent with a smirk on your face as you listened to the ignorant bliss that was around you.


Here you have it backward, Why Me.

The ignorant people are not inferior. They are superior by virtue of the fact that they do not inquire into the "mysteries" of the gospel, but are content to simply hear a million times over the basic correlated principles and parrot the same.

Those Mormons who do otherwise only show pride in the intellect God presumably gave them, and disdain for the modern prophets and apostles God put in place to keep them in blissful, humble and reverent ignorance.

Have you looked up 1 Nephi 10:19 yet?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. Sorry about that, Bob.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _consiglieri »

angsty wrote:My mother held/holds some similar ideas-- that we are supposed to hold to the rod, never "looking past the mark" to distractions of lesser importance, and that while unsought, the mysteries of the gospel would unfold according to our obedience.


Yes, I have heard that many times before, too--that great and wonderful revelations await those who are obedient.

Well, this lesson should put the final kibosh on that idea--the truly obedient are those who, by definition, do not go beyond the correlated basic principles. Hence, obedience is a dead-end to greater light and knowledge.

Ignorance is the path to enlightenment.

(You know, as crazy as that last sounds, I think it encapsulizes yesterday's Gospel Doctrine lesson.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _consiglieri »

angsty wrote:Oh this totally gets me wound up and I'm not sure I can opine with any clarity because of it.



I am so wound up it is hard for me to get clarity on it, too, and this in spite of the fact I have heard this tripe . . . well, about as many times as I have heard the correlated basics of the gospel.

I think this thread has helped me gain some clarity on why it is this particular lesson has me so riled; because never before have I heard it said so plainly that ignorance is a virtue we ignore at our peril; that being willfully uninformed about the gospel is a reason to look down one's nose at those who care enough about it to study.

I thought about throwing up my hands and walking out of the class exclaiming, "What the hell have I been doing spending three hours a week at church for the past 34-years?"

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _consiglieri »

Oh, yeah, one other thing that contributed to this whole episode frosting me was the past bishop's straw-man comment about how wanting to learn more than the basic principles is the same as wanting to know "how God transports things from place to place."

Right.

Find the most extraneous, unimportant piece of trivia you can and make it sound like this is what those who try to learn about the gospel are striving to understand.

It was also important to underscore the unspoken assumption that anything beyond the basics simply . . . wait for it . . . isn't important to our salvation.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

consiglieri wrote:Oh, yeah, one other thing that contributed to this whole episode frosting me was the past bishop's straw-man comment about how wanting to learn more than the basic principles is the same as wanting to know "how God transports things from place to place."

Right.

Find the most extraneous, unimportant piece of trivia you can and make it sound like this is what those who try to learn about the gospel are striving to understand.

It was also important to underscore the unspoken assumption that anything beyond the basics simply . . . wait for it . . . isn't important to our salvation.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


The problem is that that one can cover "the basics" in pretty much any church, or no church at all for that matter. There has to be something Mormon about it to justify the existence of the LDS church. The only way to describe what is uniquely Mormon is to get into the "mysteries," which in your Sunday School class seems to be anything other than "Be Nice!" and "Wipe after using the toilet."
_consiglieri
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _consiglieri »

Aristotle Smith wrote:The problem is that that one can cover "the basics" in pretty much any church, or no church at all for that matter. There has to be something Mormon about it to justify the existence of the LDS church. The only way to describe what is uniquely Mormon is to get into the "mysteries," which in your Sunday School class seems to be anything other than "Be Nice!" and "Wipe after using the toilet."


That is yet another thing about this lesson that I found disconcerting.

It seemed an overt attempt by the LDS Church to divorce itself from its unique underpinnings and seek to make of itself just another Christian sect.

On the surface, at least.

We all know that the things we don't talk about publicly are what really set us apart as God's One True Church.

And now we don't even talk about them in church.

And people think we aren't transparent about what we believe . . .
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Cicero
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Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"--The First Law of Mormonism

Post by _Cicero »

consiglieri wrote:We all know that the things we don't talk about publicly are what really set us apart as God's One True Church.

And now we don't even talk about them in church.

And people think we aren't transparent about what we believe . . .


I am not sure that I do know anymore Consig. In terms of "unique doctrines," I don’t know that we teach them. I don’t know that we emphasize them. I haven’t heard any of them discussed for a long time in public discourse . . . other than the Book of Mormon musical song "I Believe." :eek:
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