Public Apology Issued on Behalf of Scott Gordon

[_3sheets2thewind]

Pahoran, so long as you refer to this place as "great and spacious" you have ZERO room to talk and ZERO credibility.

Who enters the great and spacious building? Lehi nor nephi mentioned missionaries or defenders entering the building. Those who let go of the iron rod entered the building....and since you are here and you label this place great and spacious...well that doesn't say much about you.

[_Kishkumen]

Think about it for a minute. Or maybe thirty.

It is not the case that LDS "dissenters" are in any kind of physical danger that they have to hide themselves for their own protection. The Twedes of this world operate clandestinely in order to deceive the unwary; something of which you no doubt heartily approve.

It takes of all a few moments to see that once again you show an utter lack of critical analytical ability or even rudimentary imagination. The Twedes of the world hide because they don't want to be cut off from their friends and family, not because they desire to deceive the unwary.

Your rush to the conspiracist's conclusion speaks volumes about the sort of muddle-headed nut job you are. I only wish your compatriots would recognize what a liability it is to shelter and encourage an unprincipled extremist like you.

You are the kind of person who is always there to pull the executioner's switch, no matter which cause it is in defense of. The cause does not matter. You enjoy the thrill of the violence and hatred. It is all the better for you that you hide behind feigned virtue and a cause that good people pursue for noble reasons. Their decency provides a shield, a shield of light to cover the darkness of your malignant soul.

Thank you for admitting that.

"No thank you" for calling it an admission, when it was a simple statement of fact.

I grow weary of your endless insinuations and erroneous attributions of sinister motives. Please get psychological help. You're a disaster.

I regret that you have no good faith basis to believe what you assert.

Exactly what, in Interpreter, would any sane, rational, non-anti-Mormon, regard as a "witch hunt?"

I consider the kind of character assassination Lou Midgley routinely engages in to be an important element of the witch hunts that apologists have engaged in under the aegis of FARMS, the Maxwell Institute, and now the Mormon Interpreter. It is the act of making someone's character the issue, and finding any little piece of dirt on them in order to run them down publicly.

Exactly what, in the former FARMS Review under whatever title, would any sane, rational, non-anti-Mormon, regard as a "witch hunt?"

The effort to dig up dirt and spread malicious rumors about various people that FARMS or MI apologists disagreed with. The act of calling into question people's belief and faith, referring them as people deceived by Satan in order to marginalize them. Turning in information about them to Church authorities for the specific purpose of initiating church disciplinary proceedings without communicating with the alleged offender first. The list could go on and on. It is a history that has been recounted by numerous people over the years. Some of it has been documented in print. The manner in which apologists attacked Michael Quinn, Grant Palmer, Laura Compton, John Dehlin, etc., etc., etc.

I realise that it offends you when believing Latter-day Saints defend the Church against attacks from the Great and Spacious Building you have made your home; but it takes more than that to constitute a "witch hunt." Indeed, I am confident that you are one of those "all men" that we really don't want speaking well of us.

When you tell anyone that you "realize" something, it is time to brace for the twisted, delusional thinking of a perverse mind. I am rarely offended by anything that a decent person does for a good cause. But I also don't attribute goodness to a person simply based on the lip service they pay to a religion, ideology, or community. I observe how people behave. I can safely say that I don't care what you think about me at all. I don't care what any of your friends think of me.

Indeed, you are the kind of person whose bile aimed at me makes me rejoice, comforted at the thought that you rankle at my words while many upstanding people who actually know me and whom I admire enjoy our mutual friendship and support. Among these wonderful people are many good LDS people. I like them not because they say "yay" or "nay" in front of others at the right time, but because they quietly and consistently demonstrate their kindness and decency in all they do. They almost can't help themselves but be upright and compassionate folk.

And then there is you. In this forum, and wherever you engage in apologetics, you are an ugly stain on the reputation of the LDS Church. And that genuinely upsets me. I am vexed by the thought that your diabolical rhetoric and mean-spiritedness ever get associated with my church.

I hold your opinion of me and just about anything else regarding the conflict between critics and apologists as absolutely worthless and beneath contempt. I feel kind of sorry for you, I guess. And that is about the nicest thing I feel I can say to you.

[_Pahoran]

Think about it for a minute. Or maybe thirty.

It is not the case that LDS "dissenters" are in any kind of physical danger that they have to hide themselves for their own protection. The Twedes of this world operate clandestinely in order to deceive the unwary; something of which you no doubt heartily approve.

It takes of all a few moments to see that once again you show an utter lack of critical analytical ability or even rudimentary imagination. The Twedes of the world hide because they don't want to be cut off from their friends and family, not because they desire to deceive the unwary.

Kishkumen, as you perfectly well know, there is no degree of Church discipline that results in someone being "cut off from their friends and family." You are lying in your academic teeth, and you know it.

And for a completely inactive member like Mister Twede -- who, by his own admission, has never met the bishop of the ward where he resides -- excommunication has exactly zero social consequences, and no spiritual or ecclesiastical ones that could possibly matter to him.

Mister Twede only wishes to maintain some semblance of Church membership in order to give his polemical activities a specious appearance of "insider" status.

Your rush to the conspiracist's conclusion speaks volumes about the sort of muddle-headed nut job you are. I only wish your compatriots would recognize what a liability it is to shelter and encourage an unprincipled extremist like you.

You are the kind of person who is always there to pull the executioner's switch, no matter which cause it is in defense of. The cause does not matter. You enjoy the thrill of the violence and hatred. It is all the better for you that you hide behind feigned virtue and a cause that good people pursue for noble reasons. Their decency provides a shield, a shield of light to cover the darkness of your malignant soul.

And yet, after that crazed and irrational outburst, you have the temerity to say:

I grow weary of your endless insinuations and erroneous attributions of sinister motives.

Oh, you grow weary of it, do you? Then I suggest you stop.

Please get psychological help. You're a disaster.

This has become something of a favourite schtick of yours, Kish.

But here's the thing: you know, and I know, and everyone reading this thread knows, that the above represents no genuine concern for my welfare at all. It is just a puerile insult that reflects, not upon me, but upon you. If you ever want your posts to garner respect from anyone other than your fellow-haters, I suggest you drop it.

I consider the kind of character assassination Lou Midgley routinely engages in to be an important element of the witch hunts that apologists have engaged in under the aegis of FARMS, the Maxwell Institute, and now the Mormon Interpreter.

Reports of Midgley's deeds of "character assassination" represent a shared social narrative in this community of shared hatreds, but they have no basis in reality. And if you tried opening your other eye, you might be able to see that.

It is the act of making someone's character the issue, and finding any little piece of dirt on them in order to run them down publicly.

Examples, please?

Permit me to anticipate: to anyone unaffected by your ideological bias, the intellectual history behind Palmer's Insider's View, the developmental history of that book and the examination of the claims Palmer chose to make for himself seemed both relevant and timely. Why, exactly, should such history be suppressed, or such claims be unexamined?

If you can address these questions without resorting to spiteful personal rants, then please do so. If not, I suggest you don't bother.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_Kishkumen]

Kishkumen, as you perfectly well know, there is no degree of Church discipline that results in someone being "cut off from their friends and family." You are lying in your academic teeth, and you know it.

OK, I am stopping right here. This dishonest apologetic shuffle is not something I am going to waste anymore of my precious time on, especially with a bottom-feeding fascist like you.

I never suggested that LDS Church discipline directly resulted in people being cut off from their friends and family. What I said was that Twede might be motivated by a fear of such. Since such things have happened, it is entirely fair to suppose that someone like Twede might fear it.

And, finally, all I was doing in suggesting this was providing a more charitable reading of Twede's motivations, one that is in line with his own statements about his reasons for continuing in the Church as a nominal member, than your sinister and twisted take on it.

I am done with you. I was not attacking the LDS Church by accusing it of breaking up families. I was saying that a struggling member could fear the consequences to personal relationships with those who are happy in the Church, should he be subjected to formal discipline. People being imperfect as they are, it is a totally reasonable fear.

Now, try not to create devils and monsters for your perverse personal amusement. You do, as I have said, absolutely no credit to the faith in persisting in this fashion.

[_consiglieri]

I regret that you have no good faith basis to believe what you assert.

And I regret that you are a drooling idiot.



But pile all our regrets on top of each other and what have they accomplished?




All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Pahoran]

Kishkumen, as you perfectly well know, there is no degree of Church discipline that results in someone being "cut off from their friends and family." You are lying in your academic teeth, and you know it.

OK, I am stopping right here. This dishonest apologetic shuffle is not something I am going to waste anymore of my precious time on, especially with a bottom-feeding fascist like you.

I never suggested that LDS Church discipline directly resulted in people being cut off from their friends and family. What I said was that Twede might be motivated by a fear of such. Since such things have happened, it is entirely fair to suppose that someone like Twede might fear it.

And, finally, all I was doing in suggesting this was providing a more charitable reading of Twede's motivations, one that is in line with his own statements about his reasons for continuing in the Church as a nominal member, than your sinister and twisted take on it.

I am done with you. I was not attacking the LDS Church by accusing it of breaking up families. I was saying that a struggling member could fear the consequences to personal relationships with those who are happy in the Church, should he be subjected to formal discipline. People being imperfect as they are, it is a totally reasonable fear.

Now, try not to create devils and monsters for your perverse personal amusement. You do, as I have said, absolutely no credit to the faith in persisting in this fashion.

So you couldn't resist the puerile insults and spiteful personal rants, could you? Perhaps you think they do you some credit.

I have no reason to think of Mister Twede as a "struggling member." It's not possible to "struggle" in any arena without actually making some kind of effort. Twede is a member in name only who has no social connection to the Saints and no meaningful interaction with the Church at any level. He simply finds it convenient to call himself a Mormon when pushing his propaganda.

Regards,
Pahoran

[_consiglieri]

It's not possible to "struggle" in any arena without actually making some kind of effort.

I take it you're not struggling to look intelligent, then.

[_LDSToronto]

I have no reason to think

QED.

H.

[_schreech]

It takes of all a few moments to see that once again you show an utter lack of critical analytical ability or even rudimentary imagination. The Twedes of the world hide because they don't want to be cut off from their friends and family, not because they desire to deceive the unwary.

I think this is where you made your mistake in trying to explain the situation to pahoran. You assume he understands what it is like to actually have friends and close family members. Based on his posting habits, I am guessing he is a lonely, bitter individual who finds comfort in lashing out at those of us who are intelligent and courageous enough to do what he is afraid to do, follow what we believe is right even if it disagrees with what LDS social club teaches...Kind of sad.

[_Pahoran]

It takes of all a few moments to see that once again you show an utter lack of critical analytical ability or even rudimentary imagination. The Twedes of the world hide because they don't want to be cut off from their friends and family, not because they desire to deceive the unwary.

I think this is where you made your mistake in trying to explain the situation to pahoran. You assume he understands what it is like to actually have friends and close family members. Based on his posting habits, I am guessing he is a lonely, bitter individual who finds comfort in lashing out at those of us who are intelligent and courageous enough to do what he is afraid to do, follow what we believe is right even if it disagrees with what LDS social club teaches...Kind of sad.

Kish, you ought not to feel the least bit embarrassed by schreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeech's laughable attempt at amateur psychoanalysis. You ought to encourage him to continue to emulate you, his hero and role model.

But whatever you do, don't let him know that the purpose of fora like this one is to provide a "social club" where people can attack the Church of Jesus Christ without having to be the least bit "courageous." Let him keep his illusions.

Regards,
Pahoran