The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

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_zeezrom
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Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _zeezrom »

LDSToronto wrote:
Solid, indisputable evidence of God's existence is compatible with free-will/agency.

H.

Let's forget about Mormon doctrine for a second. I'm trying to imagine a world in which we all know God. I'm sorry, I cannot even begin to fathom it. The only thing that I begin to feel is conformity and it sucks!
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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_LDSToronto
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Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _LDSToronto »

zeezrom wrote:
LDSToronto wrote:
Solid, indisputable evidence of God's existence is compatible with free-will/agency.

H.

Let's forget about Mormon doctrine for a second. I'm trying to imagine a world in which we all know God. I'm sorry, I cannot even begin to fathom it. The only thing that I begin to feel is conformity and it sucks!


What prevents you, or anyone, from making choices in a world where God is known to everyone?

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_zeezrom
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Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _zeezrom »

LDSToronto wrote:What prevents you, or anyone, from making choices in a world where God is known to everyone?

H.

I haven't even gotten to the choices bit yet. I'm still thinking God's educational logistics.

How would God make herself known to us in the first place? Will she infuse our minds with data or will she do like presidential candidates, traveling around giving motivational speeches?

I can't help but think I would be extremely disappointed, no matter how she decides to show herself to all of us. It is likely she would not be what I had been hoping for. How depressing.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_why me
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Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _why me »

sock puppet wrote:

So for these reasons I find it rather hollow of an explanation to say that ignorance of god's existence or not is necessary to free agency.


Well, I don't know. Your plan sounds like satan's plan. The fact is that the Bible is full of the need for faith. What to do? I think that your idea is problematic. I don't believe that very many would refuse a heavenly life for a life with the devil. Free agency would definitely be taken away. Now one can have the freedom to choose based on faith or lack of faith. You are exercising your free agency as I am.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _why me »

zeezrom wrote:
How would God make herself known to us in the first place? Will she infuse our minds with data or will she do like presidential candidates, traveling around giving motivational speeches?

I can't help but think I would be extremely disappointed, no matter how she decides to show herself to all of us. It is likely she would not be what I had been hoping for. How depressing.


I don't know. Women are finicky, zee. And certainly your godess just may be having a woman's problem during that moment when she shows herself and her mood just may be a little unpredictable. I think that she will come with outstretched arms and give you a nice big hug and draw you close to her breast.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_zeezrom
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Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _zeezrom »

why me wrote:I don't know. Women are finicky, zee. And certainly your godess just may be having a woman's problem during that moment when she shows herself and her mood just may be a little unpredictable. I think that she will come with outstretched arms and give you a nice big hug and draw you close to her breast.

Screw you.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_RayAgostini

Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _RayAgostini »

sock puppet wrote:
Alma 32 neatly dissects faith into hoping for something, without evidence. That doesn't make the something real outside the realm of self-induced emotion. What it means is that the 'faithful' have identified an emotional need. A need for a powerful, benevolent being to watch over them, protect them, and right the wrongs done to them. This is due to basic human insecurity and a varying sense of what is 'unjust' in our world. Hoping there could be some such being comforts (another emotion) the one who hopes for such.


Alma 32 describes a step by step process that eventually ties in with Jesus' Parable of the Sower. This will still probably never satisfy those looking for "hard empirical evidence" (let's say, of the Dawkins type), but it does describe another kind of evidence, which is just as real to those who experience it fully. It's saying that we have a choice: we can let faith grow, or we can let it die. And in my view it grows stronger and stronger in the direction we choose, so that those who grow in faith eventually come to a perfect knowledge (in that thing), and those who let it die, grow more and more convinced that it's either all a lie or a fantasy - until they know nothing of the word of God, and may even mock and scorn it.

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.
22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word....

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words...

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.
34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand...

38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.
39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.
40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.
_LDSToronto
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Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _LDSToronto »

zeezrom wrote:
LDSToronto wrote:What prevents you, or anyone, from making choices in a world where God is known to everyone?

H.

I haven't even gotten to the choices bit yet. I'm still thinking God's educational logistics.

How would God make herself known to us in the first place? Will she infuse our minds with data or will she do like presidential candidates, traveling around giving motivational speeches?

I can't help but think I would be extremely disappointed, no matter how she decides to show herself to all of us. It is likely she would not be what I had been hoping for. How depressing.


I think I get what you are saying - your perfect notion of God would be shattered by your temporal experience of God...I apologize for the crude example, but it's kind of like when I went to see The Police in concert a few years back. The way I'd experienced The Police in my imagination was nothing like the letdown of the actual experience.

For God to manifest itself to me, I'd need a visual confirmation of something supernatural - God would need to be in front of me doing something super cool that couldn't be done by human beings, like changing water to wine or making things appear out of thin air.

Even so, I don't think I'd be overly impressed. I'd probably be happy there was something beyond death (if that was a logical conclusion leading from the existence of God), but other than that, I think I'd be kinda 'meh', and I'd continue living life.

H.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level."
~ Ernest Becker
"Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death."
~ Simone de Beauvoir
_zeezrom
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Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _zeezrom »

LDSToronto wrote:I think I get what you are saying - your perfect notion of God would be shattered by your temporal experience of God...I apologize for the crude example, but it's kind of like when I went to see The Police in concert a few years back. The way I'd experienced The Police in my imagination was nothing like the letdown of the actual experience.

For God to manifest itself to me, I'd need a visual confirmation of something supernatural - God would need to be in front of me doing something super cool that couldn't be done by human beings, like changing water to wine or making things appear out of thin air.

Even so, I don't think I'd be overly impressed. I'd probably be happy there was something beyond death (if that was a logical conclusion leading from the existence of God), but other than that, I think I'd be kinda 'meh', and I'd continue living life.

H.

Thank you and yes, this is what I'm getting at. Then, after she finishes the performance, I will begin to wonder... "Was that really God?"

I think it might be an impossible task for even the Great God to prove to us her existence.
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_SteelHead
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Re: The Book of Mormon *shouldn't* be proven factual

Post by _SteelHead »

We are taught that Mormon god is just. God is not just, if he were he would appear to everyone, not just a very small few. That would be just.

Which is why a hang with Exu. Exu makes no pretentions of being just.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
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