Methodists' 1828 Rejection of JSJr

[_Tobin]

I don't see why a Mormon would care one way or the other.

Part of the problem with the account is it makes little sense. It appears he was a member in training or on probation to start with. Or as most people would characterize it, he most likely attended meettings or classes and someone took down his name. The next problem is when confronted about it, he immediatedly asked to be removed and had no affinity for membership at all.

But, let's ignore all that and suppose Joseph Smith really joined the Methodists and identified with them. It means he broke God's commandment and was a sinner. Oh my!?! That would make him what? Mortal. Human. Flawed. Not Perfect. Big deal.

[_Yoda]

Interesting. So Joseph was trying to pitch the Book of Mormon to the Methodist Church, and they rejected him?

[_Chap]

I don't see why a Mormon would care one way or the other.
...

Oh, but they do ... try to understand them better.

[_Equality]

This was the child who was supposed to translate the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon.

I am not familiar with this. What is the source? I probably read it before and it just never registered, but I don't remember seeing this discussed.

[_lulu]

I wouldn't say that Joseph Smith was trying to pitch the gold plates to the Methodists. As to the Book of Mormon itself, at the time Joseph Smith was kicked out the Methodist class, the Book of Mormon manuscript was just starting to take shape. Yes, Joseph Smith had said a lot about the plates before he had them or the translation began, but I don't think he could push actual content very much until the manuscript was finished.

Joseph Smith had come from a family with religious division. He was partial to Methodism, he wife was Methodist. It makes some sense that the newlyweds tried to find a church they could go to together. Joseph Smith is reported to have said much later that he wanted to shout and dance like the others but couldn't. But that was pretty much expected of frontier Methodists. There's a statement that Emma could get into that state. But with Joseph Smith not being able to and getting expelled for necromancing he and Emma couldn't belong to the same church. He'd just come from that problem in his family of origin.

I wonder, only wonder, if it was at that point that Joseph Smith decided to start his own church, one that he and Emma could be together in. (While not ignoring that it healed religious divisions in Joseph Smith's family of origin.)

After being expelled from the Methodist class (although it's not clear how long after because the expulsion cannot be exactly dated) Joseph Smith tells one of the Whitmers that a church has to be organized. As far as I know, this is the first time Joseph Smith said that. The all churches are an abomination phrase of the first version of the first vision hadn't been written yet.

So in addition to wanting to know how Joseph Smith differed from Willard Chase (or Harmony Methodism varied from Palmyra Methodism), I'd like to know when Joseph Smith first decided to organize a new church. Did Emma or Joseph Smith's relationship with Emma have anything to do with it?

[_zeezrom]

Question:

Willard Chase was a treasure hunter, Methodist Elder and Exhorter. As far as we know, without problems.

Joseph Smith, treasure hunter, was invited to leave his Methodist class.

Why?

But Mr. Chase was a Methodist Elder. Isn't that a good reason to keep him in the Methodist church? What came first: office of Elder or treasure hunting? The timing matters.

[_Drifting]

One wonders why Donny neglected to include all these facts in his blog response...

[_Darth J]

I don't see why a Mormon would care one way or the other.

Maybe you could find a Mormon and ask him or her. Do any Mormons ever visit Tobin's Star Trek Church?

Part of the problem with the account is it makes little sense. It appears he was a member in training or on probation to start with. Or as most people would characterize it, he most likely attended meettings or classes and someone took down his name. The next problem is when confronted about it, he immediatedly asked to be removed and had no affinity for membership at all.

It makes little sense if you credulously accept the canonized LDS version of the First Vision as Joseph Smith's consistent story. If you find that story to be a late invention that evolved over time, however, the account makes much more sense.

But, let's ignore all that and suppose Joseph Smith really joined the Methodists and identified with them. It means he broke God's commandment and was a sinner. Oh my!?! That would make him what? Mortal. Human. Flawed. Not Perfect. Big deal.

No, it substantially diminishes his credibility when he claims at age 14, he wanted to know which church was right, and subsequently the Creator of the Universe appeared to him and told him that all the other churches were wrong and he should join none of them. Joining the Methodists after this purported life-changing personal experience with God "makes little sense."

[_lulu]

Question:

Willard Chase was a treasure hunter, Methodist Elder and Exhorter. As far as we know, without problems.

Joseph Smith, treasure hunter, was invited to leave his Methodist class.

Why?

But Mr. Chase was a Methodist Elder. Isn't that a good reason to keep him in the Methodist church? What came first: office of Elder or treasure hunting? The timing matters.

I don't know, I need go looking for a solid article on Willard.

[_Joe Geisner]

I am not familiar with this. What is the source? I probably read it before and it just never registered, but I don't remember seeing this discussed.

Equality,

There is two references to the child "seeing" or translating the plates. They are in E. D. Howe's Mormonism Unvailed pages 264 and 267. The first from Isaac Hale and the second and more detailed account from Joshua M'Kune who says, "Joseph Smith, Jr. told him that (Smith's) first-born child was to translate the characters, and hieroglyphics, upon the Plates into our language at the age of three years; but this child was not permitted to live to verify the prediction."

I seem to have either added to the account or there is more that I cannot find about the child being able to translate the sealed portion. So at this point, it seems that the child was supposed to translate the plates, with nothing being said about the sealed portion. Sorry for this.