Lance Armstrong and Joseph Smith

[_Drifting]

The Lance Armstrong myth has been blown to pieces by evidence exposing the seven-time Tour de France  winner as a ringleader of 'the most sophisticated, professionalised and successful doping  programme sport has ever seen'.
The US Anti-Doping Agency released a 200-page report revealing in minute detail how Armstrong:
Surrounded himself with drug  runners and doping doctors
Bullied team-mates into using his methods
Intimidated witnesses
Repeatedly lied to investigators
Pulled out of a race to avoid a test.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... z290rsfgsr
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"Live strong" should be renamed "Live wrong"

[_Sethbag]

"Live strong" should be renamed "Live wrong"

Nah, they just need to include an informative packet on doping and recommendations for dosages, injection practices, and so forth with the bracelets. Truth in advertising, you know?

[_Aristotle Smith]

What I'm trying to say is that if you acknowledge that the era in which Lance Armstrong and his team won the 7 tours was rife with cheating, to the point where most insiders acknowledge that "everyone" was doing it, then I'm not sure I see the point of a Lance-specific witch hunt, stripping the titles, and reassigning them to someone else who was probably just as bad a cheater as Lance was.

You are reading too much into what comparisons I am making. I couldn't care less what happens now that Armstrong is an acknowledged cheat. Let him keep his victories or give them to Mickey Mouse, I don't care.

My primary point is to show a secular equivalent of why many TBMs simply can't process the facts. There are still going to be Armstrong defenders if he denies the whole thing. In doing so I was inviting a little sympathy from apostates. Secondarily, I was trying to show the similarities between Smith's tactics and Armstrong's tactics.

I am fascinated by your response to all of this Sethbag. Take for example the paragraph quoted above, it has the same form and content as does a FARMS style defense of the priesthood ban (everyone was doing it, they were all racists back then, going after Mormons is nothing but a witch hunt, therefore the LDS church is still the Lord's true church because at worst it's no worse off than any other church and at best people have nice warm fuzzies about their involvement in the LDS church).

[_Ceeboo]

They were both looking for gold.

Mr. Smith found it in New York.

Mr. Armstrong did not find it in Sydney (But he did find bronze and he got to keep his)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_RayAgostini]

.

[_Chap]

The matters referred to in this thread are part of the reason why I lost all interest in professional sport some time ago.

[_Sethbag]

My primary point is to show a secular equivalent of why many TBMs simply can't process the facts. There are still going to be Armstrong defenders if he denies the whole thing. In doing so I was inviting a little sympathy from apostates. Secondarily, I was trying to show the similarities between Smith's tactics and Armstrong's tactics.

by the way, I don't reject the facts. It looks pretty damning for Lance Armstrong. I accept that.

I am fascinated by your response to all of this Sethbag. Take for example the paragraph quoted above, it has the same form and content as does a FARMS style defense of the priesthood ban (everyone was doing it, they were all racists back then, going after Mormons is nothing but a witch hunt, therefore the LDS church is still the Lord's true church because at worst it's no worse off than any other church and at best people have nice warm fuzzies about their involvement in the LDS church).

There's a huge, crucial difference here. The LDS church claims to be true, as in "God really exists and set up the LDS Church to be his Kingdom on Earth". All Lance did was win some bicycle races competing against other mere mortals. If all the bicyclists were cheating, it was still a competition, and Lance still won. But if God doesn't really exist, or didn't set up the LDS church to be the organ through which he interacts with homo sapiens on Earth, that changes everything about what the church is all about.

I see what you're getting at. I acknowledge that Lance almost certainly cheated. I'm not sure I agree that there's much point to going after him like they have, considering that a historical re-write of the kind they are attempting will still not be accurate or complete because all the others who cheated but whom they didn't go after will remain unpunished and unvillified.

[_Sethbag]

by the way, I'm not sure if you and I are actually arguing about anything Aristotle. Going back to the OP, here's what you said:

And then I realized that as long as Lance continues to deny this, there are going to be a small core of people unable or unwilling to acknowledge the truth. The story of the cancer survivor who wins the most grueling sporting event on the planet is just too inspirational. The story must be almost mesmerizing to those who have experienced or are experiencing cancer. In a way it is cruel to tell the truth to those who for several years have flocked to Armstrong, to his Livestrong campaign, who have proudly worn yellow bracelets, and who have been inspired by someone not only beating cancer, but thriving.

And then I realize that no matter how much you tell people about Joseph Smith, there are always going to be a core of people unable or unwilling the acknowledge the truth. It is an inspirational story, at least the sanitized version that the LDS church teaches. Miraculous visions, endurance through persecution, victory in Nauvoo, followed by martyrdom are all so inspirational. It's almost cruel to tell people about polyandry and the Book of Abraham, not to mention several dozen other facts which muddies the sanitized version they have heard and prefer to keep on believing.

Apparently you weren't talking about me. The evidence convinces me that Armstrong apparently lied his ass off. I don't deny that.

[_Jason Bourne]

I used to be a big cycling fan, both riding and watching the sport. I'll never forget the day I was shooting the bull with the owner of the local cycling shop, who I would ride with on Saturday mornings. We were talking about one of the big upcoming professional tours. The conversation went something like this:

Him: You know that all of the pros are doped up.

Me: Really? Even with all the testing?

Him: Every. last. one. of. them.

I learned about the history of cycling and figured out that he was probably right. But, I still held out hope that Lance Armstrong was the lone clean rider. Then Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton came out and I knew that Armstrong was a doper. The only real defense against them was that they were bitter and jealous of Lance Armstrong. That and Armstrong's constant denial of "I've never tested positive" (note the phrase was always carefully worded that way, he always was sure to emphasize that he tested clean above any denials of doping).

Because Lance was a hero, people kept wanting to believe. After all, his story was a really good story, provided the doping allegations were false. I kept saying in the back of my mind that there would need to be a smoking gun to get people to wake up, there had to be some testimony that was unimpeachable. I figure that if George Hincapie testified against Lance, that would be it. Hincapie and Armstrong were always best buds and Hincapie's popularity is almost entirely due to his riding with Lance on so many Tours de France.

Well, Hincapie has spilled the beans and admitted to doping, implicating Armstrong in the whole process. As an added bonus, several other witnesses in the know have come forward, including Johnathan Vaughters and Christian Vande Velde. Neither had anything to gain by confessing and neither is enemies with Armstrong.

And then I realized that as long as Lance continues to deny this, there are going to be a small core of people unable or unwilling to acknowledge the truth. The story of the cancer survivor who wins the most grueling sporting event on the planet is just too inspirational. The story must be almost mesmerizing to those who have experienced or are experiencing cancer. In a way it is cruel to tell the truth to those who for several years have flocked to Armstrong, to his Livestrong campaign, who have proudly worn yellow bracelets, and who have been inspired by someone not only beating cancer, but thriving.

And then I realize that no matter how much you tell people about Joseph Smith, there are always going to be a core of people unable or unwilling the acknowledge the truth. It is an inspirational story, at least the sanitized version that the LDS church teaches. Miraculous visions, endurance through persecution, victory in Nauvoo, followed by martyrdom are all so inspirational. It's almost cruel to tell people about polyandry and the Book of Abraham, not to mention several dozen other facts which muddies the sanitized version they have heard and prefer to keep on believing.

I am an avid cyclist. I am a cancer survivor. Armstrong's book inspired me greatly when I had cancer. After wards I climbed on a bike for the first time in years in order to get fit. I did this again because of Armstrong. To give back to the cancer community I have ridden in 7 LIVESTRONG Centuries to raise money for Armstrong's foundation. I have raised over $45,000 for them. I wear the yellow wrist band. I have a half dozen LIVESTRONG cycling jerseys, a couple hoodies as well as shirts. I was never much a sports fan but I did start following cycling and Armstrong became my sport hero.

It has been fairly clear to me for about a year that Armstrong really did dope. I did not want to beleive it. The most recent news, especially Hincapie's confession, has really sealed it for me.

Today I feel angry. I wonder if I want to trash all my LIVESTRONG clothes and wonder if I will ever raise money for the foundation again. But my feelings are mixed. Can I still support and organization that does much good? Can I sitll have some admiration for what Armstrong did with his fame? Today when I got home from work I said to my wife that my sports hero was cheat and liar as was Joseph Smith one of my religious heroes. I still attend the LDS Church and support it. Can I do the same for the LAF? Time will tell.

It sure is a mixed bag. I feel like I cannot trust or admire anyone.

One thing is for sure. I will still ride and race my bike. I love it.

[_Jason Bourne]

Well it certainly looks like Lance was a master of deception and sneakiness and a rampant master doper. My point remains, however, which is that if literally everyone in cycling at the time was doing it, what does that mean that Lance was also doing it? What were the captains of all the other teams doing? What about the guy who came in 2nd place? Was he doping too? Were all the guys in the top 10 each Tour also doping? Top 20? Does it matter?

What does it mean if his 7 tour wins are reassigned to someone else who was probably doing all the same crap as Lance?

This reminds me of the baseball steroids scandals of recent years. If you go far enough back in baseball, a lot of guys were taking all kinds of crap. Then you pick and choose and invalidate a couple of records and guarantee that two or three guys will never make it into the Hall of Fame, but what does it mean that a lot of guys already in the Hall were probably doing all that same crap too?

I'm not in favor of taking drugs, by the way. I'm not in favor of steroids or anything else.

I understand your points. But I have trouble saying well hell they all doped. Then does it partly boil down to who was the best doper, who paid the best doctors, who just was able to get the best edge. Clearly Armstrong was a great talent. He probably was the best of his era even with all this. Still I have trouble justifying it.

And by they way, I think if you punish Armstrong all of the other riders who coughed up confessions should be punished as well. Good ole George. He lost my respect by this. Oh I will tell all just let me ride my 17th Tour de France so I get that record. Now I am retired I will tell all. Wow. Vaughters, ban him from managing a team. Levi, you suck too. Hamilton, you were a damn liar for years and I believed you. Asshole! Landis you chump. I am damn glad I never gave money to your legal defense fund. I was almost dumb enough to do so.