A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Gadianton wrote:One more point, Ray, if Cas's argument was that Jackson was trying to create a straw man by citing McConkie, how do you explain the fact that she actually doesn't engage a single one of those citations? She only references McConkie to say that he cited him 40 times, more than he does "official sources" per his paraphrase of Robinson that she takes out of context. Her only point in bringing up McConkie was to demonstrate a supposed contradiction, and she failed.

In contrast, she extensively engages points Jackson makes as responses to Stephen Robinson's work. If his effort was to create a "straw man" by citing sources that are untrustworthy -- Mormon Doctrine being untrustworthy in the eyes of your friend you respect at church -- then shouldn't his appeal to Robinson also be a part of his straw man ploy, especially since Cas spends a great deal of effort on these points? You're up against a wall here, because it would seem Robinson and McConkie would have to go down together, and while the apologists may often be dismissive of McConkie, Robinson is one of their own. He's in with the apologists, big time.

McConkie and Robinson are two great sources. I'm open minded enough to include Robinson even though he's an apologist as a great source, even though he's probably an Internet Mormon, because when it comes to abstract stuff that isn't subject to secular criticism such as how the atonement works, he seems to be accepted by Mormons generally, used in seminary etc.


This is really what it comes down to, isn't it? If Jackson shouldn't have consulted McConkie, should he therefore have consulted Robinson? The answer is: he did, but Hedelius (and Ray) continue to sidestep this basic point.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_RayAgostini

Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _RayAgostini »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Seth calling the Mopologists "douche bags" is every bit as valid as Dan Peterson calling Ron Priddis a "sodomite."


DCP called Ron Priddis a "sodomite"?

Provide a reference.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

RayAgostini wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:Seth calling the Mopologists "douche bags" is every bit as valid as Dan Peterson calling Ron Priddis a "sodomite."


DCP called Ron Priddis a "sodomite"?

Provide a reference.


I'll tell you what, Ray: I'll provide you with your "reference," but first you have to either (a) address the issues raised by Dr. Robbers about how Hedelius has attacked Jackson for citing McConkie, but has overlooked the fact that he *also* cited Robinson (and by "address," I mean, "show how this is an OK thing to do, how it squares with academic and Good Ol' Christian Standards"), or, (b) cite official LDS doctrine that explains how "Metcalfe is Butthead," "Will Bagley is a venomous gasbag," or "Are you still selling books by that queer?" are acceptable kinds of behavior for practicing Latter-day Saints.

So I'll just be standing by here, waiting for you to hold up your end of the bargain.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_RayAgostini

Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _RayAgostini »

Doctor Scratch wrote:I'll tell you what, Ray: I'll provide you with your "reference," but first you have to either (a) address the issues raised by Dr. Robbers about how Hedelius has attacked Jackson for citing McConkie, but has overlooked the fact that he *also* cited Robinson (and by "address," I mean, "show how this is an OK thing to do, how it squares with academic and Good Ol' Christian Standards"), or, (b) cite official LDS doctrine that explains how "Metcalfe is Butthead," "Will Bagley is a venomous gasbag," or "Are you still selling books by that queer?" are acceptable kinds of behavior for practicing Latter-day Saints.

So I'll just be standing by here, waiting for you to hold up your end of the bargain.


Then your reference/link/proof, is obviously a spoof. You want to "do deals" before you reveal the most damning evidence against DCP, or so you think?

I'd have thought you'd be eager to reveal the "moral depravity" of DCP, without resorting to bribes.

So where's the proof, the link, or whatever you have, where DCP calls Ron Priddis a "sodomite"?
_Kishkumen
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Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _Kishkumen »

Most Mormons don't know what constitutes their official doctrine. Hedelius is knocking this writer because he relies heavily on a book that is entitled, Mormon Doctrine, was written by an apostle of Jesus Christ, and was, over a period of decades, owned by practically every family that was active in the LDS Church. This is just one more in a long line of bogus apologetic criticisms. It is characteristic for apologists to judge others as though these same apologists are the official arbiters of what constitutes doctrine.

If the LDS Church has done such a poor job of managing the issue of what constitutes doctrine, then why is Jackson in for special criticism for citing McConkie's Mormon Doctrine 40 times?

Not because it is some kind of egregious error, but because Hedelius has to puff up the sense that this book is especially awful by any means possible.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Yoda

Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _Yoda »

Ray wrote:So where's the proof, the link, or whatever you have, where DCP calls Ron Priddis a "sodomite"?


I would like to see this proof as well. This hardly sounds like the kind of language DCP would use. And I happen to know that DCP considers Ron Priddis a friend, so this type of allegation is very disturbing.
_Kishkumen
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Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _Kishkumen »

liz3564 wrote:I would like to see this proof as well. This hardly sounds like the kind of language DCP would use. And I happen to know that DCP considers Ron Priddis a friend, so this type of allegation is very disturbing.


Guys, I think it is fairly clear that this is the subtext of Peterson's dreadful excretion entitled, "Text and Context," wherein he approvingly cites the anti-Semite crackpot E. Michael Jones' theory that disbelieving is a function of one's choice to live a an immoral lifestyle. It is a theory that is so thoroughly risible and disgusting that Peterson's on-the-record approbation for it does him no credit whatsoever.

Daniel Peterson wrote:But let's not waste time on such silly name-calling. What of the logic of argumentation? The uneven but fascinating book Degenerate Moderns: Modernity as Rationalized Sexual Misbehavior, by E. Michael Jones, will serve as an example of the logically legitimate use of ad hominem analysis.42 With learning and passion, Jones shows repeatedly how certain influential theories, writings, and works of art—among them several that substantially define the cultural environment in which we now live—grew organically from the often warped and immoral lives of those who produced them. This should hardly come as a surprise. No less a figure than the great William James had already argued in his essay "The Will to Believe" against the myth that anyone—even anyone affiliated with Signature Books—chooses his attitude toward issues of cosmic or life-orientational significance on the basis of pure, abstract reason alone. But Jones goes further. With great plausibility, he reads Margaret Mead's now discredited account of an idyllic Samoan paradise of guiltless free love as an implicit defense of her own marital infidelities. He shows that Sigmund Freud's theories are intimately related to the first psychoanalyst's own sexual urges and sexual sins. Pablo Picasso's paintings image the artist's checkered sexual career. Even Alfred Kinsey's studies of human sexuality, purportedly based on hard statistical data but now known to be far wide of the mark, seem to have been distorted to a great extent by Kinsey's own (possibly homosexual, certainly odd) personality. "Far from being two mutually exclusive compartments hermetically sealed off from each other, the intellectual life turns out to be a function of the moral life of the thinker."43

And, through it all, on the part of the intellectuals discussed, there runs a solid thread of hostility toward religion—and toward its moral demands. Sometimes this hostility took the shape of formal critique: "Freud, we are told with a tendentiousness that suffuses [Peter] Gay's entire biography, 'sharply differentiat[ed] the scientific style of thought from the Illusion-ridden style of religious thinking'. . . 'Science,' Gay tells us, 'is an organized effort to get beyond childishness. Science disdains the pathetic effort of the believer to realize fantasies through pious waiting and ritual performances, through sending up petitions and burning heretics.' "44 Jones sees the period of secularization following the French Revolution as crucial. "The intellectual," he says, "is a peculiarly modern invention, whose rise is predicated upon the demise of the Church as a guide to life."45 In the weakest chapter of his book (weak because too heavily colored by his own seemingly Counterreformation Catholicism), Jones briefly discusses the career of Martin Luther. While his analysis here is not wholly convincing, the model he proposes is abundantly documented in his book as a whole: "Throughout the second decade of the sixteenth century, Luther became involved in a spiritual downward spiral in which, as is the case with an embodied spirit, spiritual laxity led to sensuality, which in turn led to intellectual rebellion against the discipline of the Church, which led to further sensual decline and further rage against the Church that upheld the standards he soon felt no longer capable of keeping."46


Daniel Peterson wrote:In the brilliant third chapter of Degenerate Moderns, entitled "Homosexual as Subversive," E. Michael Jones demonstrates the crucial and explanatory role of personal lifestyle not only in the traitorous career of Sir Anthony Blunt, but in the theories of John Maynard Keynes, the biographical writings of Lytton Strachey, and the novels of E. M. Forster. "Modernity was the exoteric version of Bloomsbury biography; it was a radically homosexual vision of the world and therefore of its very nature subversive; treason was its logical outcome. . . . The Bloomsberries' public writings—Keynes' economic theories, Strachey's best-selling Eminent Victorians, etc.—were the sodomitical vision for public consumption."55 Reflecting upon the development of the characters in Forster's long-suppressed book, Maurice, Jones notes that, "In the world of this novel it's hard to tell whether declining religious faith fosters homosexuality or whether homosexuality kills faith. At any rate Forster sees a connection. . . . As their involvement in sodomy increases, so also does their opposition to Christianity."56 That denial of the truths one can know about God should lead to sodomy is in some sense a mystery," concludes Jones. "However, it is a mystery that can be fairly well documented, from Paul's epistle to the Romans to any objective view of modern British history."57 In any event, it seems clear that immorality (not merely of the homosexual variety) and intellectual apostasy are, and always have been, frequent (though not invariable) companions. (Joseph Smith's famous announcement of a link between adultery and sign-seeking is apropos here.)58 Sodom and Cumorah are apparently not compatible.


He applies this fig leaf to cover his shame:

Daniel Peterson wrote:It must be clearly understood that I am not charging any particular individual, at Signature or anywhere else, with sexual immorality. I have used rather dramatic examples in order to make the case that writers are reflected in what they write.


You can take him at his word, or you can choose not to.

Given a number of incidents over the years, I think it is more likely than not that some of Peterson's views and conclusions about certain writers are influenced by a prejudice against homosexuals, which he narrowly avoids explicit expressions of.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_lulu
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Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _lulu »

liz3564 wrote:
Ray wrote:So where's the proof, the link, or whatever you have, where DCP calls Ron Priddis a "sodomite"?


I would like to see this proof as well. This hardly sounds like the kind of language DCP would use. And I happen to know that DCP considers Ron Priddis a friend, so this type of allegation is very disturbing.

Read DCP's "Text and Context" and then tell me what he's trying to say about Priddis, gays, gays who have left the church, everyone who has left the church and any one who writes anything less than a supper "rah rah" piece about the church.

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=147
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_MCB
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Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _MCB »

So Jackson's primary error was excessive reliance on McConkie, and missing the argument that the very fluidity and internal inconsistency of what is considered Mormon doctrine invalidates the entire "system" of belief?

As for attacking atheist/agnostic ex-Mormons on moral issues, the argument egregiously fails when even Martin Luther attacked antinomianism which is belief without ethical principles. Not only that, but many people reject all theistic beliefs because of the abuse of religion. I regard it as a normal phase in the exit from a flawed belief system. It may be accompanied with such horrible transgressions as drinking prohibited drinks, smoking, not attending church, and divorce, but those things in themselves are celebrations of freedom, not rejection of all morality.

As for Priddis, I get the impression that his critical attitude towards Mormonism has a very broad base, and that sexuality is a relatively minor part of his life.

IMHO.

I am currently reading "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" by Bokencotter, The response of the Catholic Church to Protestant criticisms was what saved the church. Will we see that with Mormonism? I doubt it.

OMG-- :surprised: DCP implies that everyone who rejects Mormonism does so because they are homosexual. The man is mental-- as if I didn't know that before.
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_Doctor Scratch
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Re: A New Smear Piece in "Mormon Interpreter"

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

RayAgostini wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:I'll tell you what, Ray: I'll provide you with your "reference," but first you have to either (a) address the issues raised by Dr. Robbers about how Hedelius has attacked Jackson for citing McConkie, but has overlooked the fact that he *also* cited Robinson (and by "address," I mean, "show how this is an OK thing to do, how it squares with academic and Good Ol' Christian Standards"), or, (b) cite official LDS doctrine that explains how "Metcalfe is Butthead," "Will Bagley is a venomous gasbag," or "Are you still selling books by that queer?" are acceptable kinds of behavior for practicing Latter-day Saints.

So I'll just be standing by here, waiting for you to hold up your end of the bargain.


Then your reference/link/proof, is obviously a spoof. You want to "do deals" before you reveal the most damning evidence against DCP, or so you think?

I'd have thought you'd be eager to reveal the "moral depravity" of DCP, without resorting to bribes.

So where's the proof, the link, or whatever you have, where DCP calls Ron Priddis a "sodomite"?


I'm still waiting, Ray.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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