Religious misunderstandings

[_Harold Lee]

That's a deep painting. That is probably how many bishops see inactives as that's one of the few stereotypes of less actives and if you feel that's the closest he will too.

The bigger question is is that how you feel? There seems like a longing where the church was, maybe for it to be what it purports and what you believed it to be for so long.

I felt that same way about bishops for the longest time, and actually to some extent all active members, as if there was something special about them that enabled them to judge characters accurately. There isn't but they do (and I did too), and to dwell within and on it is self-torture. I never felt fully secure because I believed all that, and it shattered my confidence quite a bit in a way that I only felt better when I towed the line and conformed more. The way they condition active Mormons to treat inactives and see themselves if they ever go inactive is pure torture and part of how they stay strong. Calling the Mormon church a cult is tricky semantics, but purely from a sociological standpoint it being as large as it is doesn't make any less of one. JW's go through the same things and have similar forums.

The more ties you keep with Mormonism while not being part of the "in" crowd, the more they use those channels to poison you. When what you were conditioned be believe was your sole positive influence in life becomes a manipulative and negative one because you decide to step away, the natural instinct is to go back and restore it to make the negativitiy go away (especially when it's conditioned you to view your self-worth through their eyes) but that's how an abusive relationship works. It's a cult in this way among many others.

The best way to end an abusive relationship (and this is a terribly manipulative one) is to put up boundaries, claim ownership, and cut ties- things the church taught was rebellion, apostasy, sinful, etc and you never needed to or did learn as an active Mormon.

Just it's a very sad painting and it seems like it's probably not just your bishop's perception. Still feel that way sometimes, the deeper you dig yourself in Mormonism the harder it is to get out.

[_LDSToronto]

This is now what the bishop sees when he looks at me:


Ivan Grohar, 1910

He sees a man who lives in isolation from any supposed powers of the Great LDS. He is armed with magic the bishop would never understand. The mists rise and the storm blows the waves around me but the bishop will never know what magic I see in it all.

Brilliant.

[_honorentheos]

Zee -

Beautiful thoughts. And the picture with explaination? You are a poet, friend. I was moved by the imagery. Perhaps I misread things, but I seem to have read your OP in a way that makes some of the responses above seem like they are missing your point? I read it as if you are commenting on your past and expressing gratitude for where you are today? That you are able to be your own person in the midst of the waves and turmolt, recognizing it as mere froth that has no power over you?

What this makes me think of is the Joseph Campbell "Hero" architype. The youth, green and unproven who leaves home to adventures, trials, and experience and then returns home no longer the boy he was and more than just having grown older. There is a mystical hero's quest story in your comments somewhere.

No holiday soldiers--youthful, yet veterans,
Worn, swart, handsome, strong, of the stock of homestead and workshop,
Harden'd of many a long campaign and sweaty march,
Inured on many a hard-fought bloody field.

[_PrickKicker]

I sat in one of those, Personal Priesthood Interviews and the guy said to me...

Do you masturbate?

I said: Do I what?
he said: Masturbate?

I said: I'm sorry I do not know what that means, Can you explain it to me?

The subject then changed to: I hear rumours that you fancy one of my daughters.

Me being me, trying to be quick witted, said: Which one, you have three?

He trying to be clever said: Well which one do you like?
Me: All of them they are all gorgeous!

[_zeezrom]

Perhaps I misread things, but I seem to have read your OP in a way that makes some of the responses above seem like they are missing your point? I read it as if you are commenting on your past and expressing gratitude for where you are today? That you are able to be your own person in the midst of the waves and turmolt, recognizing it as mere froth that has no power over you

Thank you for the kind words, Honorentheos. I realize you are on a personal ban from this place [cry], so my response is really meant to inform the group of my intentions.

I say "yes" to your questions above. I would also add to your guess about my use of waves, mist, and wind to be more of a perception thing. While the bishop might see my current life choices as life threatening, I see them as almost magical: a fresh look at the world that I didn't realize was attainable. The chains of my religious world have opened to something living and breathing and amazingly wonderful. I have found a way into the dragon's lair and shot an arrow into his soft spot. In case you are wondering: LDS Correlation is Smaug. Only I can fully understand this and he never will. Thus, it is magic to him.

[_jo1952]

I'm lucky enough to be in a book club with the speed-reader, Honorentheos and he recently forced (via arm twisting) me to read Orwell's "Such, Such Were the Joys". This essay got me to thinking a little about how much of our religious experience can be based on misunderstandings of our childhood.

The world we create as children forms into what feels like a reality. One of my realities was that the men sitting on the stand in sacrament meeting can read my mind and search into my soul. I'm not exactly sure where this came from. By the time I was 15, I was pretty sure the bishop of my ward was keeping tabs on me through his telepathic mind rays. It was painful to look up at him for fear of meeting his gaze. I thought that he would be especially able to read my mind if our eyes locked. Some days, I felt he must be staring down at me in hopes that I would meet his gaze.

When I interviewed with my bishops, I always felt they could see more truth about me than what I expressed. I believed that if I answered "No." they could tell if I really meant "Yes." For some reason, the bishops would never catch me in my guile. Why not? They would never stop me and say, "Zee, I know you really meant "yes." I know you really have serious problems that need to be discussed right now. I know all about you." I believed the bishops did not say this out of mercy. They wanted to let me exercise my free agency and let me choose my fate in the heavens.

It truly is amazing the grand, faux world I built up in my mind. Now I can look back and take apart all the misunderstandings that sprouted in my childhood.

Hello Zeezrom!

You are speaking a great mystery here; one of the reasons Jesus taught us that unless we were like a child, we could not enter into the Kingdom of God! This is also why it is an abomination to God for man to baptize infants.

We have heard that where there is no law, there is no sin. A child does not "know" sin until WE teach s/he what sin is. The "we" who teach sin are parents, teachers, religious leaders, etc. I hope that you don't mind that I smiled when I read of the guilt you felt when describing how you thought your Bishop could read your mind; because we all do feel terrible pangs of guilt when confronted with our own "sinfulness". Yet it is others who have defined what those sins are; we more than likely were ignorant of them until they were pointed out to us. Of course, these are the more minor sins. We are born with an innate "knowing" that major sins are wrong in accordance with the amount of light our spirit remembers (though we may not yet be able to identify with where this remembering comes from). Also, this is part of our learning how to deal with our knowledge of Good and evil. So, it all serves its purpose in the grand scheme of the Plan of Salvation.

I was raised a Lutheran. Hell-fire and eternal damnation were a very frightening part of my upbringing. I even used to think that loved ones who had passed on were watching me and knew every "sin" I committed. As such, I was not only disappointing God, I was also disappointing deceased family members. That is quite a load to carry, isn't it?!

Then, when I joined the LDS Church, I felt that Bishops, Stake Leaders, etc., would know of my sins because they carried the mantles of their positions. Surely, the Holy Ghost would let them know if I was less than honest in any interviews!! But I was still young in my learning the ways of a spiritual walk both before and after I joined the Church. We have free agency. Even through His servants, God is not going to take away our free agency.

What I am speaking here is that it is not only the LDS Church who establish "law" with its attached "sins". These laws come from everywhere no matter our circumstances of birth, upbringing, etc. All of these things create our world view and influence how we will make the choices we make; how much light our spirit has or adds to or subtracts from.

Now, to the mystery you have tapped into. You now feel freedom from the "laws" taught to you as a child; it just so happens that you were brought up LDS that it is the LDS Church you now feel freed from. And WHY do you feel freed? Because you are now beyond those particular laws. You see yourself beyond them; they no longer bind you to the sin you used to feel bound by.

This mimics the mystery our spirits need to be awakened to!! The more we know who we are, the more we are able to give up being bound in a temporal world with all of its established laws, and see the spiritual Truths of our existence, the more we progress towards Oneness with Father and with our Christ. God's commandments have been given to us as a road map; so there is a play of light and darkness we participate in with the goal of complete spiritual awakeness within our reach. The two greatest commandments help us to manifest light within our spirit. Seeking Truth is intertwined with the keeping of these two commandments. The more Truth we seek and receive, the more aligning we do with God's will; the less attached we are (and less prone to "breaking" them) to the "laws" because we evolve into the awareness of higher levels of understanding our spirit self. The result is the more perfectly we keep those commandments.

The "magic" you now have over the Bishops is that you no longer allow yourself to be bound to their laws. Likewise, the "magic" we gain as our spirits become filled with more and more Light/Truth is what allows us to eventually once more see the Kingdom of God. Realizing that we need to go through this education helps us see why and what God is preparing us for.

Many blessings,

jo

[_jo1952]

It truly is amazing the grand, faux world I built up in my mind. Now I can look back and take apart all the misunderstandings that sprouted in my childhood.

Hello again, Zeezrom!

I also wanted to mention that you have hit upon another mystery in your above comment. We are, indeed, living in a faux world; i.e., a dreamstate. For this is not the True reality of our eternal beings. This is a temporal existence created as part of our education; it is temporary and it will end. But our spirits will live on.

You are very wise my friend.

Blessings,

jo

[_KevinSim]

Neither do the LDS 'apostles', as attested to by the fact that SWK, NET, MGR (then the FP) and GBH and BKP were taken in by the forgeries of Mark Hoffman.

I have a distinct memory of Gordon Hinckley announcing the discovery, through Mark Hoffman, of a letter allegedly written by W.W. Phelps. Hinckley thought it was an important document, but, due to other things that were known about Phelps, he expressed some doubt that Phelps had actually written it. That doesn't sound like Hinckley was as much "taken in" as you said he was.

[_KevinSim]

Learning to lie without those tale tell signs is an asset that makes it possible to advance quickly in the LDS structure, to become part of and prosper among the priestly-class of Mormons.

Ah, so that's why I haven't advanced "quickly in the LDS structure"! I knew there had to be some reason.