L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

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_Kishkumen
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Kishkumen »

So, Droops, how does it feel to have so much in common with Ted Kaczynski?

Correct me if I'm wrong folks, but, aside from being more intelligent and a better writer than Droopy, what really distinguishes Kaczynksi's nutty BS from Droopy's crazy political rants?

Kaczynski Manifesto wrote:20. Notice the masochistic tendency of leftist tactics. Leftists
protest by lying down in front of vehicles, they intentionally provoke
police or racists to abuse them, etc. These tactics may often be
effective, but many leftists use them not as a means to an end but
because they PREFER masochistic tactics. Self-hatred is a leftist
trait.

21. Leftists may claim that their activism is motivated by compassion
or by moral principle, and moral principle does play a role for the
leftist of the oversocialized type. But compassion and moral principle
cannot be the main motives for leftist activism. Hostility is too
prominent a component of leftist behavior; so is the drive for power.
Moreover, much leftist behavior is not rationally calculated to be of
benefit to the people whom the leftists claim to be trying to help.
For example, if one believes that affirmative action is good for black
people, does it make sense to demand affirmative action in hostile or
dogmatic terms? Obviously it would be more productive to take a
diplomatic and conciliatory approach that would make at least verbal
and symbolic concessions to white people who think that affirmative
action discriminates against them. But leftist activists do not take
such an approach because it would not satisfy their emotional needs.
Helping black people is not their real goal. Instead, race problems
serve as an excuse for them to express their own hostility and
frustrated need for power. In doing so they actually harm black
people, because the activists' hostile attitude toward the white
majority tends to intensify race hatred.

22. If our society had no social problems at all, the leftists would
have to INVENT problems in order to provide themselves with an excuse
for making a fuss.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Kishkumen »

Darth J wrote:
Droopy wrote:No, Squishkumen,


I like this name, because it reminds me of Squidward from "Spongebob Squarepants" and also a character from the Book of Mormon.

Have you given any thought to posting some Spongebob/Book of Mormon slash fic, Droopy?


Droopy only calls me that because he has a mad crush on Snape.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Falcon A
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Falcon A »

L. Tom was calling out the likes of Romney as I believe he is evidence of the problem.

The trickle down doesn't work and Romney's a prime example. He spoke of starting out with 'nothing', eating dinner off an ironing board, etc.... Ok, he had humble beginnings and made it on his own. Given. If he says so.

At what point was/is it time to reinvest, start a company or otherwise spend some of that $250,000,000.00?
My understanding of "trickle-down theory" as invented by Reagan, and explained to my elementary school-aged brain by my straight ticket Republican father, was that the wealthy have more cash to spend on boats, cars, buildings, clothes, etc. etc. These rich customers are what creates jobs. The middle class build the toys for the rich, in a manner of speaking. The problem arises when the wealthy aren't spending enough and the cash never trickles down.

Where is it, gaining interest in off-shore accounts? Fine, but that's not a good example for one running for President of the United States. Especially when he hasn't explained how he's going to cover his tax cuts. Will I no longer deduct my home mortgage interest? The Per-Child Tax Credit going away?
He doesn't say, but he wants an old cut to not expire. Let the cut expire. Does him paying a little more cut into his 1/4 billion? ...as compared to the middle-class covering his break?

He'll still make hundreds of millions more in his career, and maybe a few more regular Joe's will climb a rung or two on the ladder of this wonderful capitalist society; or at least be able to buy a new pair of shoes.

If a person of middle income were to save $50K over several years to start a small business and spend it all, they're putting their ass and a huge percentage (think 100) of their disposable income at risk.

Mitt, on the other hand, seems to be a good saver, as many of his generation are. At what point does the trickle begin? I'm not discounting the wealth he has obtained and that it is not something he can be proud of, he just shouldn't pay ~14% on millions when many pay more than that on 5 figure salaries.

He may have a goal to get to a billion $.
Good for him, I wish him well, but how does that benefit anyone but him and his?
Get to that billion paying a percentage equal to the guy who has to save for everything he/she has; absolutely not less. If a (R)guy takes home well over half a million a year and can't get by, tough. He needs to learn to budget.

Mitt and his wealthy friends feel entitled to a tax benefit, at the expense of others, and that's not right. Especially when there's evidence that it doesn't trickle down very well.

That's what L. Tom meant.

Peace.
_Droopy
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Droopy »

Kishkumen wrote:
Droopy wrote:Secondly, Kaczynski is one of you; he's a leftist who's bizarre ravings cannot, without prior knowledge, be disentangled from the beliefs of Al Gore, much of the mainstream environmental movement, many in the Democratic party, and not a few in here.


Ha! Boy, you are a complete ignoramus.

Kaczynski Manifesto wrote:7. But what is leftism? During the first half of the 20th century
leftism could have been practically identified with socialism. Today
the movement is fragmented and it is not clear who can properly be
called a leftist. When we speak of leftists in this article we have in
mind mainly socialists, collectivists, "politically correct" types,
feminists, gay and disability activists, animal rights activists and
the like. But not everyone who is associated with one of these
movements is a leftist. What we are trying to get at in discussing
leftism is not so much a movement or an ideology as a psychological
type, or rather a collection of related types. Thus, what we mean by
"leftism" will emerge more clearly in the course of our discussion of
leftist psychology (Also, see paragraphs 227-230.)

8. Even so, our conception of leftism will remain a good deal less
clear than we would wish, but there doesn't seem to be any remedy for
this. All we are trying to do is indicate in a rough and approximate
way the two psychological tendencies that we believe are the main
driving force of modern leftism. We by no means claim to be telling
the WHOLE truth about leftist psychology. Also, our discussion is
meant to apply to modern leftism only. We leave open the question of
the extent to which our discussion could be applied to the leftists of
the 19th and early 20th century.

9. The two psychological tendencies that underlie modern leftism we
call "feelings of inferiority" and "oversocialization." Feelings of
inferiority are characteristic of modern leftism as a whole, while
oversocialization is characteristic only of a certain segment of
modern leftism; but this segment is highly influential.


That's about as close to Droopy one can hope to get without being Droopy.

Droopy, you lose yet again. You are a petty, ignorant bigot with a tenuous grasp on sanity. Ted is your closest fellow traveler. Get help.



Question: is the real human being who is the anonymous Internet coward "Kishkumen" really this dim? Is he really this ignorant? Is he really this unread, uneducated, and uninformed? Is he really this intellectually self-sabotaged?

Well...yes.

This is the same ignorant, self-serving, poorly educated and poorly read mistake generations of leftists have made when comparing Marxism, Nazism, and fascism. They fight amongst themselves and criticize each other, and therefore they must be opposite philosophies in fundamental ideological conflict.

Kaczynski was a neo-primitivist environmental fundamentalist, and a believer in the most estreme fringes of the environmental movement. When his cabin was searched in 1996, after his arrest, FBI agents found issues of the Earth First Journal and a publication called Live Wild or Die, which itself was funded by Earth First's co-founder Mike Roselle. For years after his arrest, Earth First expressed support and solidarity with Kaczynski in print.

Secondly, as Rush Limbaugh pointed out at the time with a little test he gave for weeks on his radio show, the average person could not tell the difference between the stated positions of Kaczynski on environmental issues and those of Al Gore. If you've read Earth in the Balance, you have already encountered substantial portions of Kaczynski.

If you had a modicum of intellectual honesty below your veneer of pious, smug intellectual snobbery, then instead of quoting incontextual criticisms of the Left as he understands it (Marx and Engles criticized the Left too, Squish), you might have bothered to quote more extensive doctrinal sections of The Unabomber Manifesto. Text, for example, such as:

The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in "advanced" countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering (in the Third World to physical suffering as well) and have inflicted severe damage on the natural world.


So far, standard leftist neo-primitivist environmental extemism/eco-Marxism. Classic Green assumptions and premises thus far.

The continued development of technology will worsen the situation. It will certainly subject human beings to greater indignities and inflict greater damage on the natural world, it will probably lead to greater social disruption and psychological suffering, and it may lead to increased physical suffering even in "advanced" countries.


Hmmm. This could be a book or fundraising letter from Earth First, Friends of the Earth, the WWF, NRDC, RAN, the Ruckus Society, PETA, the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society, Greenpeace, and countless other similar groups on the Left. Indeed, James Hansen calling for Nuremberg-like trials against coal and petroleum company executives who disagree with AGW for "high crimes against humanity" are not all all far from the ideas and sentiments expressed here.

We therefore advocate a revolution against the industrial system. This revolution may or may not make use of violence: it may be sudden or it may be a relatively gradual process spanning a few decades. We can't predict any of that. But we do outline in a very general way the measures that those who hate the industrial system should take in order to prepare the way for a revolution against that form of society. This is not to be a POLITICAL revolution. Its object will be to overthrow not governments but the economic and technological basis of the present society.


Sounds pretty left-wingish to me, squish. I have here on my disk a bevy of quotations from leading evnironemntalists going back quite a few years, and most of its sounds very much like, well, Ted Kaczinski (not William F. Buckley or Rush Limbaugh).

More, Squish?

We are going to argue that industrial-technological society cannot be reformed in such a way as to prevent it from progressively narrowing the sphere of human freedom. But because "freedom" is a word that can be interpreted in many ways, we must first make clear what kind of freedom we are concerned with.


This could be any number of traditional Marxists, cultural Marxists, leftists, and postmodernists talking about western and American style "freedom" (in scare quotes) or of "formal" or "Bourgeoisie" or "negative" freedom as over against their own understanding of it. What does Ted mean?

It is said that we live in a free society because we have a certain number of constitutionally guaranteed rights. But these are not as important as they seem. The degree of personal freedom that exists in a society is determined more by the economic and technological structure of the society than by its laws or its form of government.


Hmmm...where have I heard that before.

There's a great deal more to mine here, but its ultimately a waste of time...
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Bond James Bond
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Droopy wrote:This was a new and quite lucid "choose you this day" moment for the NOM's, "Reform," and "neo-Orthodox" cultural Mormons, and especially those among the small but vocal liberal LDS academic elite who fancy themselves the authentic "anointed servants" and oracles of the Lord among the Latter-day-Saints (and perhaps those "voices" of "Mormon life and culture") who, having at first tasted of the fruit of the Tree of Life, and then having looked around and made eye contact with the cool, hip people in the Great and Spacious Building, felt ashamed, and, well, not really left the Church in the way many leave the Church (leaving it and attacking it from the outside), but began a life's work of boring from within the Church such that, eventually, the Church will leave the gospel.


One period. Twelve commas. Six sets of quotation marks. One failure.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Droopy
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Droopy »

Kishkumen wrote:quote="Droopy"As I've already made clear, the vast majority of faithful, committed Latter-day Saints (which pre-disqualifies you by definition) who have a substantive understanding of gospel doctrine and philosophy (yet another pre-disqualfication) will understand that statement just as I understood it, as, come now Kish, it could only, given the overwhelming preponderance of historic Church doctrine and GA teaching for the duration of the 20th century, have one possible range of meaning.

And that proves what? That you base your politics on the majority LDS opinion?


No, it means my politics, ultimately, are grounded in the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Why would I particularly care that an apostle is a conservative or that many Mormons are conservative?


You may not, but that's hardly relevant. What Perry said is completely consistent with similar statements made by other GAs reaching back into the 1930s, and upon the same subjects.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Bond James Bond
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Kishkumen wrote:Geez, what an insufferable tool you can be, Droopy. Just drop the Ulysses Everett McGill meets Jerry Falwell act and be real for once in your damned life.


Delmar O'Donnell approves this message.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
_Kishkumen
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Kishkumen »

Droopy wrote:There's a great deal more to mine here, but its ultimately a waste of time...


Droopy, you're a complete idiot. The guy talks about liberals in exactly the same crazed way that you do. Just because he is also a Neo-Luddite does not mean you get to tell him that he is also a Leftist. You have got to be the thickest dullard on this entire board. Only a person as abjectly stupid as you could read his incessant diatribes about the deficiencies of liberals and leftists and then proceed to call him a leftist.

Your argument holds no water. You have just engaged in the No True Scotsman Fallacy for what must be the thousandth time on this board.

Again, you fail.

It is so bleeding obvious, and yet you remain completely obtuse, as always.

Get a brain and an imagination. Get a therapist. Get something.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Kishkumen »

Droopy wrote:
And that proves what? That you base your politics on the majority LDS opinion?


No, it means my politics, ultimately, are grounded in the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.


No, it actually doesn't.

Why would I particularly care that an apostle is a conservative or that many Mormons are conservative?


You may not, but that's hardly relevant. What Perry said is completely consistent with similar statements made by other GAs reaching back into the 1930s, and upon the same subjects.


Any thinking person who is not a drone ought to think for himself, and not say, "hey, Elder Perry sounded like he was using some of my favorite conservative buzzwords, that must mean that he agrees with my personal lunatic political views!"
Last edited by Guest on Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Bond James Bond
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Kishkumen wrote:
Equality wrote:Anyone else ever hope that Droopy does not have mad bomb-making skills?


Droopy still has his wife to think about, a woman who loves him and puts up with him on grocery trips.


Someone has to cook the gabbages.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

MASH quotes
I peeked in the back [of the Bible] Frank, the Devil did it.
I avoid church religiously.
This isn't one of my sermons, I expect you to listen.
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