L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

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_Droopy
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Droopy »

What is sad here is that if the LDS Church does have a dominating political philosophy other than one of resentment against the federal government, it does almost nothing to articulate it intelligently.


You might want to go back to the thirties and read the direct and strongly worded attacks on the concepts underlying much of the New Deal. The program was never mentioned directly, nor any politicians or parties, but the concepts were excoriated and contrasted to the then just forming Church welfare system, and its principles are of a distinctly different hue.

The most famous, of course, would be Heber J. Grant's statement in 1936 during the inception of the Church welfare system (italics mine):

Our primary purpose was to set up, in so far as it might be possible, a system under which the curse of idleness would be done away with, the evils of a dole abolished, and independence, industry, thrift and self respect be once more established amongst our people. The aim of the Church is to help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership.


This is settled, established Church doctrine.

I would love to see how many non-LDS Republicans would have been eager to live the United Order.


The vast majority of them, I would assume, don't understand the doctrine and would need to first join the Church, acquire a testimony of the it, and work toward understanding and making the covenants. In any case, as the UO is fundamentally a free-market and individual property based system, I would expect the reaction to be mixed (and, in any case, Squish, the UO is not an economic system, but a Celestial law encompassing the entirety of culture, society, psychology, and individual conduct. Its purpose, in LDS theology, is to prepare an entire people for the literal second coming of Jesus Christ. Its economics are an appendage to that overall purpose, not its foundation).

How many of them would line up to live the Law of Consecration? All of that love of private property and liberty makes me think that, uh, not many Republicans would be eager to jump on that bandwagon.


You don't even understand the core doctrine yourself, Squish. You don't even understand the basic doctrinal concepts involved, and hence, you have no credibility here. This is simple: no knowledge = no credibility.

The UO is entirely private property based. How many times need this be repeated? It is also free agency (liberty) based and grounded fundamentally in personal agency, initiative, and increase in one's talents (some five fold, some ten etc.).

You know as well as I do that Mormon love of Republicanism is mostly a weak protest against the intrusion of federal power until God brings forth his Kingdom.


There is no such thing as any Mormon "love of Republicanism." "Republicanism", whatever that is, has traditionally been fairly hostile to conservatism and it is conservatism that attracts the vast majority of Mormons, to the degree they are actually faithful, converted Latter-day Saints, and until the Lord "makes an end of all nations" and institutes higher and more refined principles of government, it will always be so.

The Kingdom of God has almost nothing in common with Republican conservatism.


1. You're actual understanding of LDS doctrine, as expressed here and in countless other threads, is so poor, distorted, and confused as to render any such claims such as this devoid of credibility.

2. Yet another leftist strawman to bait the hook for more polemics. No one has ever made any such claim. Modern conservatism, however, is the closest any political philosophy and broad-based view of the human condition comes to gospel principles (as it contains, in various forms and various degrees, much gospel truth). Hence, the leaning toward it among the Saints.

My guess is that, when push comes to shove, you will choose your crazy politics over your religion.


You already have, Squish. I have other plans...
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Darth J
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Darth J »

Darth J wrote:"Mormonism and the New Germany:"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=A ... =frontpage (go to page 19)


“Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.”

Brother Blood, I'm sure you will agree with me that the Lord was hastening his work with the Third Reich. Can we not see what a blessing it is that the institutional anti-Semitism that led to the Final Solution made it easier for the Saints to do genealogy work?
_Darth J
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Darth J »

Brother Blood, I bet it really pisses you off that the Church irrefutably was a Nazi sympathizer.

Maybe if you call me Johnnie Cochran or assert without proof that I'm a leftist, it will change objective reality.

Incidentally, Brother Blood, I think it's just self-evident that Johnnie Cochran was a shyster. He was black, after all.
_Droopy
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Droopy »

Darth J wrote:
Darth J wrote:"Mormonism and the New Germany:"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=A ... =frontpage (go to page 19)


“Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.”

Brother Blood, I'm sure you will agree with me that the Lord was hastening his work with the Third Reich. Can we not see what a blessing it is that the institutional anti-Semitism that led to the Final Solution made it easier for the Saints to do genealogy work?


I wasn't gong to respond to you at all, ever again, and now that I see you've finally gone completely insane, it makes the temptation to help you make a fool of yourself all the easier to resist.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Darth J
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy wrote:
Darth J wrote:"Mormonism and the New Germany:"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=A ... =frontpage (go to page 19)

“Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.”

Brother Blood, I'm sure you will agree with me that the Lord was hastening his work with the Third Reich. Can we not see what a blessing it is that the institutional anti-Semitism that led to the Final Solution made it easier for the Saints to do genealogy work?


I wasn't gong to respond to you at all, ever again, and now that I see you've finally gone completely insane, it makes the temptation to help you make a fool of yourself all the easier to resist.


Brother Blood, just think of all those spirits in prison who would have had to wait longer for their temple work to be done if Hitler had not determined that the Jews were to blame for Germany's problems.
_Droopy
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Droopy »

Oh, and I did notice the date of the paper - 1933 - the year Hitler came to power.

Want to roll the dice again?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Darth J
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Darth J »

Has the Church ever been on the right side of histroy, Brother Blood?

They were for polygamy. They were ambivalent about slavery (you are aware that the Church accepted ownership of a black man as tithing-in-kind, are you not?). They were sympathetic to the Third Reich. They were opposed to the civil rights movement.

What are you going to do when the Supreme Court recognizes same-sex marriage and the Church is yet again dragged kicking and screaming into normal society?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Darth J
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Darth J »

Droopy wrote:Oh, and I did notice the date of the paper - 1933 - the year Hitler came to power.


Yes. It's just the darndest thing how Nephi could foresee Columbus landing in America centuries before the fact, but the Lord couldn't throw a bone to the Bretheren that Hitler was not a very nice man----especially since the Church News specifically references how Hitler's anti-Semitism is helping the Saints in Germany.

Want to roll the dice again?


Sure!

http://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/024-20-29.pdf

"Hitler enjoyed at least as much popularity among German Saints as he did among the population in general. His apparent dynamism and self-confidence seemed to show a way out of the chaos and weakness of the Weimar years. Moreover, as ‘good Germans,' the Mormons were acutely aware that Hitler had risen to power through legal channels... Some Church members even saw Hitler as God’s instrument, preparing the world for the millennium. Superficial parallels were drawn between the Church and the Nazi party with its emphasis on active involvement by every member... The vital importance of ‘Aryan’ ancestry gave new significance to genealogical research. And the Fuhrer himself, the non-smoking, non-drinking vegetarian who yielded to no one in his desire for absolute law and order, seemed to embody many of the most basic LDS virtues."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"... [S]ympathy [for some of the Nazi goals] was apparently shared by some members of the [Mormon] Church leadership. The Church's German magazine, Der Stern, reminded its readers in 1935 that Senator Reed Smoot had long been a friend of Germany, and this attitude seemed to receive official sanction during President Grant's 1937 visit. The message to the German Saints was clear: Stay here. Keep the Commandments. Try to get along the best you can, even under some limitations. We want to keep the Church intact and the missionaries working.”

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"The German Saints were not eager for a confrontation with their national government and they were happy to follow President Grant's advice. By and large, the Mormons and the Nazis coexisted comfortably."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"In their eagerness to coexist with the [Nazi] government, American officials of the German Church resorted to public relation efforts . . . Probably the clearest example of this tendency is an article by West German Mission President Alfred C. Rees entitled 'In the Land of the Mormons.' The article appeared in a special issue of the Nazi Party organ Der Volkische Beobachter dated April 14 1937. In the Editor's Preface to the article, President Rees is called 'the representative of the Church in Germany,' who 'paints for our readers a portrait of Mormonism today, a church which views the New Germany with sympathy and friendship.' Whether President Rees originally wrote the article in German or not, the language of the piece abounds in such loaded terms as Volk and Rasse (race), and a picture of Brigham Young bears the caption, 'Fuhrer der historischen Mormonenpioniere.' But the significance of these linguistic gaffes is magnified by hindsight. More disturbing is the way President Rees blatantly parallels Mormonism with Nazism. As Rees warms to his topic, Mormonism begins to sound like a fulfillment of Nazi teachings, providing 'the practical realization of the German ideal: "the common good takes precedence over the individual good."' Rees concluded by assuring his readers that 'Mormons are people who put this healthy doctrine into action.' Reading articles such as this, it would have been easy for a German Saint to mistakenly conclude that the seal of official Church approval had been placed on the Nazi regime."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"[The Mormon] policy of appeasing the Nazis worked well until the war broke out. Despite the classification of Mormonism as a sect 'dangerous to the state…' according to Gestapo reports, the Church was not summarily dissolved as many others were. The missionaries remained; the Church continued. Even during the war, Mormon life was disrupted more by bombing raids, supply shortages, and travel restrictions than by official harassment. By and large, the German Saints lived through the Thousand-Year Reich much like the rest of their countrymen."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"Some Church members even saw Hitler as God's instrument, preparing the world for the millennium."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"Superficial parallels were drawn between the Church and the Nazi Party, with its emphasis on active involvement by every member. The women's auxiliary of the Party and the Hitler Youth were regarded by some as secular equivalents to the Church's Relief Society, MIA, and the Scouting programs."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"The vital importance of ‘Aryan' ancestry gave new significance to genealogical research."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"... [T]he Fuhrer himself, the non-smoking, non-drinking vegetarian who yielded to no one in his desire for absolute law and order, seemed to embody many of the most basic LDS virtues."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29
_Darth J
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _Darth J »

It's okay if you call me "Johnnie Cochran" again, Brother Blood. I understand if you feel that being compared to a black person is a serious insult.
_son of Ishmael
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Re: L. Tom Perry Takes Dead Aim at the Left in Conference

Post by _son of Ishmael »

Darth J wrote:
Darth J wrote:"Mormonism and the New Germany:"

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=A ... =frontpage (go to page 19)


“Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.”

Brother Blood, I'm sure you will agree with me that the Lord was hastening his work with the Third Reich. Can we not see what a blessing it is that the institutional anti-Semitism that led to the Final Solution made it easier for the Saints to do genealogy work?



From the article: “…As a matter of fact, a number of interesting parallels can be seen between the church and some of the ideas and policies of the National Socialists…”

You would have thought that the Lord would have taken time out from his busy schedule to tell the church leadership to stay away from making any sort of favorable comparisions between the church and the FREAKING NAZIS...
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
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