Too Many Credible Witnesses, Says Daniel Peterson

[Guest]

Read the article, Bob. I think you might be surprised. I think Joseph Smith was a true idealist and this led him to make, as demonstrated by his demise, deadly errors of judgement.

I actually think I'd like to have a beer with Joseph some day. Even with all his many shortcomings you have to be impressed with what he did by the age of 38.

Were you able to meet Joseph Smith, he would almost certainly take you up on the offer of a beer. In spite of his Word of Wisdom, Joseph Smith used alcohol and was known to appear drunk in public on occasion.

There is very strong evidence that alcohol is not the only drug with which Joseph Smith was familiar. Richard Bushman writes that the entire Smith family was well acquainted with folk medicine and the extraction and use of herds such as Ginseng (which Bushman reports that Joseph Smith Sr. extracted commercially). This knowledge and skill with herbs no doubt extended to the Jimson weed (Datura) used by Native Americans of the area as an entheogen for their Visions Quests and other local entheogens.

Numerous early accounts of group experiences with manifestations of the "spirit", visions, and goings on in the School of the Prophets, etc., the fact that these were commonly associated with the consumption of sacramental wine, and ceased abruptly when Joseph Smith was killed, leaves little doubt that Joseph Smith as a magician (again according to Richard Bushman), used extracts from datura, and/or manita muscaria mushroom and/or peyote to "enhance" the spiritual experiences of his followers.

Contemporary descriptions of events at the School of the Prophets can be mapped point for point onto the well known course of signs and symptoms of Datura ingestion, the effects of which can last for up to two days.

If I were to invite Joseph Smith for a beer (or especially a glass of wine) I would be sure that it came from my stock, not his.

[_lulu]

Read the article, Bob. I think you might be surprised. I think Joseph Smith was a true idealist and this led him to make, as demonstrated by his demise, deadly errors of judgement.

I actually think I'd like to have a beer with Joseph some day. Even with all his many shortcomings you have to be impressed with what he did by the age of 38.

Were you able to meet Joseph Smith, he would almost certainly take you up on the offer of a beer. In fact there is very strong evidence that Joseph Smith used not only alcohol (in the form of wine and hard liqueur), but was also familiar with the extraction and use of herbs such as Ginseng (according to Richard Bushman) and no doubt Jimson weed used by Native Americans of the area as an entheogen for their Visions Quests.

Numerous early accounts of group experiences with manifestations of the "spirit" visions and goings on in the School of the Prophets, etc. the fact that these were commonly associated with the consumption of sacramental wine, and ceased abruptly when Joseph Smith was killed, leaves little doubt that Joseph Smith as a magician (according to Richard Bushman) and a con man, used extracts from datura, manita muscaria mushroom and/or peyote to "enhance" the spiritual experiences of his followers.

Contemporary descriptions of events at the School of the Prophets can be mapped point for point onto the well known course of signs and symptoms of Datura ingestion, the effects of which can last for up to two days.

If I were to invite Joseph Smith for a beer (or especially a glass of wine) I would be sure that it came from my stock, not his.

I think you are going to need more than just tracing the "symptoms" back to the substances because the "symptoms" could have come from other sources too. Not that the substances need to be excluded either.

[_Tchild]

Would anyone care to comment on this article? He seems to make a good case.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7656 ... -lied.html

All Irrelevant. The earth is not six thousand years old, Adam was not the literal first man who lived in a paradisaical glory with a literal first woman who were unable to die, but who elected to "fall" so that death, both physical (that is the one that science can dispute fully) and spiritual could enter the world.

So, somehow these "witnesses" testified to a claimed reality (plates, resurrected angels, plan of salvation etc etc) that supports the very same creation myths as found in Mormon doctrine and belief, that absolutely does not, and never has existed...and that is a "good case" for Mormonism.

There is no need to discredit the witnesses, because the very cosmology they "witness" of is myth, and it discredits itself effortlessly.

[_Kishkumen]

He transformed from a humbly born carpenter, blacksmith and missionary, and one of several contenders to the throne, into an iron-fisted Theocrat seeking to establish an Anti-American Empire.* (And in the process he transformed Mormonism itself from something different than its genesis under Smith.)


*some exaggeration for rhetorical effect (I learned this trick from Old Boss himself!)

Where's the exaggeration again? Just so I know.

[Guest]

Were you able to meet Joseph Smith, he would almost certainly take you up on the offer of a beer. In fact there is very strong evidence that Joseph Smith used not only alcohol (in the form of wine and hard liqueur), but was also familiar with the extraction and use of herbs such as Ginseng (according to Richard Bushman) and no doubt Jimson weed used by Native Americans of the area as an entheogen for their Visions Quests.

Numerous early accounts of group experiences with manifestations of the "spirit" visions and goings on in the School of the Prophets, etc. the fact that these were commonly associated with the consumption of sacramental wine, and ceased abruptly when Joseph Smith was killed, leaves little doubt that Joseph Smith as a magician (according to Richard Bushman) and a con man, used extracts from datura, manita muscaria mushroom and/or peyote to "enhance" the spiritual experiences of his followers.

Contemporary descriptions of events at the School of the Prophets can be mapped point for point onto the well known course of signs and symptoms of Datura ingestion, the effects of which can last for up to two days.

If I were to invite Joseph Smith for a beer (or especially a glass of wine) I would be sure that it came from my stock, not his.

I think you are going to need more than just tracing the "symptoms" back to the substances because the "symptoms" could have come from other sources too. Not that the substances need to be excluded either.

lulu,

On another thread, I posted a graphic listing the chemical names of the some of the hallucinogens present in a number of entheogens.

I have been interested in the fact for some time that so many people reported such florid symptoms (visions). This relates directly to DCPs claim that there were too many witnesses to the "spiritual manifestations" of the time for these not to have been genuine. In my view. they were genuine alright, but unfortunately not from the source ascribed by JSJr. and DCP.

Richard Bushman's credible description of the Smith family familiarity with folk medicine and folk magic, their practice of collecting and extracting herbs for money, and the availability in the area of the three types of enthoegens I mentioned, demonstrate the opportunity and means for use of these substances by Joseph Smith. The motive was also clearly there.

The question then is what evidence is there that this was actually done? Datura ingestion (poisoning) has a fairly unique onset of symptoms and runs a well known course if left untreated. Today it can be treated with anti-psychotics. In those days it just ran its course for a day or two.

As I mentioned, contemporarily reported events on several occasions map very well onto Datura ingestion. This is not a short lived, ten or fifteen minute experience such as one encounters with DMT or a high of a few hours such as with LSD, this is serious stuff that goes on for a day or two.

I will try to go back and find some these descriptions and post excerpts. As one who is very familiar with these kinds of compounds (including their design and synthesis) and the receptors with which they interact, I think it is far more likely than not that Joseph Smith used these "enhancers", and that other members of his family may have assisted him in this undertaking.

If anyone can come up with a more plausible (rational) explanation for these reported manifestations, one that can explain the reported events as well as the use of entheogens does, I would be very interested to hear it.

This kind of explanation for these manifestations has been out there for a long time. Based on my background and experience, I just happen to find it very credible.
______________________________

Edited in response to post by Gramps to change "one or two" to "a few".

[Guest]

I think you have a great idea. I'm just wondering how it can be further developed.

Joseph Smith had symptom X. Sympton X can be produced by datura, by physiological defect or by staring at a stone until one enters a meditative state.

So why should I prefer datura over the other 2? Or was it a combination of 2 of them? Or a combination of 3 of them?

What I'm wondering, and it may well exist, there's lots of things I'm unware of. I'm wondering if we have any sources that are more explicit about European American use of datura. That makes for an even better argument. If the evidence is from western NY in the 1820s, halleluja.

I think one of the understudied and under thought about issues in US religious history is what European Americans may have picked up from Native Americans. This could be along those lines. (I'll leave Native American polygamy and Mormon polygamy for another day).

But I think to get it passed 3 peer reviewers, it still needs some work, something in addition to just the symptoms.

I think you are going to need more than just tracing the "symptoms" back to the substances because the "symptoms" could have come from other sources too. Not that the substances need to be excluded either.

lulu,

On another thread, I posted a graphic listing the chemical names of the some of the hallucinogens present in a number of entheogens.

I have been interested in the fact for some time that so many people reported such florid symptoms (visions), which relates directly to DCPs claim that there were too many witnesses to the "spiritual manifestations" of the time for these not to have been genuine. In my view. they were genuine all right, but unfortunately not from the source ascribed by JSJr. and DCP.

Richard Bushman's credible description of the Smith family familiarity with folk medicine and folk magic, their practice of collecting and extracting herbs for money, and the availability on the area of the three types of enthoegens I mentioned, demonstrate the opportunity and means for use of these substances by Joseph Smith. The motive was also clearly there.

The question then is what evidence is there that this was actually done? Datura ingestion (poisoning) has a fairly unique onset of symptoms and runs a well known course if left untreated. Today it can be treated with anti-psychotics. In those days it just ran its course for a day or two.

As I mentioned, contemporarily reported events on several occasions map very well onto Datura ingestion. This is not a short lived, ten or fifteen minute experience such as one encounters with DMT or a one to two hour high such as with LSD, this is serious stuff that goes on for a day or two.

I will try to go back and find some these descriptions and post excerpts. As one who is very familiar with these kinds of compounds (including their design and synthesis) and the receptors with which they interact, I think it is far more likely than not that Joseph Smith used these "enhancers", and that other members of his family may have assisted him in this undertaking.

[Anonymous]

He transformed from a humbly born carpenter, blacksmith and missionary, and one of several contenders to the throne, into an iron-fisted Theocrat seeking to establish an Anti-American Empire.* (And in the process he transformed Mormonism itself from something different than its genesis under Smith.)


*some exaggeration for rhetorical effect (I learned this trick from Old Boss himself!)

Where's the exaggeration again? Just so I know.

humilitas?

[_lulu]

He transformed from a humbly born carpenter, blacksmith and missionary, and one of several contenders to the throne, into an iron-fisted Theocrat seeking to establish an Anti-American Empire.* (And in the process he transformed Mormonism itself from something different than its genesis under Smith.)


*some exaggeration for rhetorical effect (I learned this trick from Old Boss himself!)

quote="Kishkumen"] here's the exaggeration again? Just so I know.[/quote]

humilitas?

I love it when you talk dirty.

What did BY have to say about the US Constitition? We know what Joseph Smith had to say.

[_Blixa]

humilitas?

I love it when you talk dirty.

What did BY have to say about the US Constitition? We know what Joseph Smith had to say.

Oh that guy was just full of metaphor anyway! Blood Atonement? A colorful figure of speech. Use them up? A homespun saying. Send over the rim? A frontier adage. Send to hell cross lots? A folksy aphorism.

[_Blixa]

I am chastened by FAIR:

Did Brigham Young Say that He Would Kill an Adulterous Wife with a Javelin?

While Brigham’s example seems to us extreme, we need to keep in mind the spirit of his time. He was speaking forcefully to a group of spiritually apathetic Saints to remind them of the seriousness of the covenants they had made. He took an Old Testament scenario–one in which an Israelite had killed another sexually immoral Israelite–and applied it to his own time and people.

Before our critics go after Brigham Young for his views on blood atonement, they need to deal with comparable passages in their own Bible.

My Bible? Sorry, bub, Jude the Obscure has no such comparable passages. Also "spiritually apathetic Saints" is a disgusting slander on a people who had given their all to raise up Zion in the desert. Shame on you and may God have mercy on your soul.