Too Many Credible Witnesses, Says Daniel Peterson

[Guest]

lulu,

Staring at a stone (self-hypnosis) or meditation, etc., do not produce florid psychotic symptoms. Here is an example of the kind of episode I am referring to as recorded in Times and Seasons.

--- we partook together of the emblems of the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ … and the Holy Ghost was poured out upon us in a miraculous manner many of our members prophesied, whilst others had the heavens opened to their view, and were so overcome that we had to lay them on beds, or other convenient places: among the rest was brother Newel Knight, who had to be placed on a bed, being unable to help himself. ... He saw the heaven opened, and beheld the Lord Jesus Christ seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high ... When bodily strength was restored to these brethren, they shouted `Hosannas to God and the Lamb,' and rehearsed the glorious things which they had seen and felt, whilst they were yet in the spirit. (Times and Seasons, Vol.4, No.2, p.22-p.23)

Note that this episode started with a taking of the sacrament (wine at that time). Note that Bro. Newell "had to be placed in bed, being unable to help himself".

Note that one of the recognized symptoms of intoxication by certain entheogins is "prophetic utterances". (See the graphic on the "Heaven" thread.)

The account above says that they rehearsed things which they had "seen and felt". Bro. Newell saw exactly what the magician Joseph Smith had suggested that he would see. (Richard Bushman has characterized Joseph Smith as a "magician" - his words not mine.)

Datura poisoning is not a passive "lay back and enjoy" experience such as has been reported for DMT. It is characterized by by increased heart rate, sweating, agitation, dizziness, etc. It is something that is really "felt" physically.

There are several recorded occasions where Joseph Smith told his followers, "now we are going to see visions", pretty much the same way in which a Shaman tells those in his charge what to expect on their vision quest.

When one looks at the evidence with some understanding of the use of enthoegens in 19th Century America, things become pretty clear.

As for recorded use of these substances by European Americans, you have a good point. I do know of some evidence that this was the case, but the question certainly deserves more attention.

[_lulu]

humilitas?

I love it when you talk dirty.

What did BY have to say about the US Constitition? We know what Joseph Smith had to say.

Oh that guy was just full of metaphor anyway! Blood Atonement? A colorful figure of speech. Use them up? A homespun saying. Send over the rim? A frontier adage. Send to hell cross lots? A folksy aphorism.

I ask because, with Kish, I don't think your statement was an exaggeration. But it seems it was a particular type of anti-Americanism.

They liked the pre-14th Amendment Constitition, were quite devoted to it. They didn't like the capitalistic Protestant (monogomous) establishment. Goddamn America indeed.

Sometimes I wonder why the Utah War wasn't worse.

[_Blixa]

I ask because, with Kish, I don't think your statement was an exaggeration. But it seems it was a particular type of anti-Americanism.

They liked the pre-14th Amendment Constitition, were quite devoted to it. They didn't like the capitalistic Protestant (monogomous) establishment. Goddamn America indeed.

I guess if were answering seriously I would have to, like you, qualify the kind of "anti-americanism," because of mythos of "america" is built into Mormonism as well.

[_gramps]

DrW wrote:

As I mentioned, contemporarily reported events on several occasions map very well onto Datura ingestion. This is not a short lived, ten or fifteen minute experience such as one encounters with DMT or a one to two hour high such as with LSD, this is serious stuff that goes on for a day or two.

DrW, I have often wondered about whether this was all entheogen induced madness. So, I am with you there.

However, your quote above has me confused. First, datura is long lasting. I agree with you. Can go on for much longer than 24 hours, if you are one of the unlucky ones.

DMT need not last for such a short time. Used together with an MAO inhibitor, and ingested orally, it can last at least a day if not more. There are all kinds of MAO inhibitors. They (MAO inhibitors) also enhance a mushroom experience dramatically. I wonder if Joseph was extracting some kind of MAO inhibitor, as well as, other entheogen substances.

But, about the LSD. A one or two hour high? Even a low dose of 150 micrograms will produce a longer lasting high than you mention above.

Take 350 micros and it doesn't give up for up to 12 hours.

My pick is datura, but who knows.

[_DrW]

DrW wrote:

As I mentioned, contemporarily reported events on several occasions map very well onto Datura ingestion. This is not a short lived, ten or fifteen minute experience such as one encounters with DMT or a one to two hour high such as with LSD, this is serious stuff that goes on for a day or two.

DrW, I have often wondered about whether this was all entheogen induced madness. So, I am with you there.

However, your quote above has me confused. First, datura is long lasting. I agree with you. Can go on for much longer than 24 hours, if you are one of the unlucky ones.

DMT need not last for such a short time. Used together with an MAO inhibitor, and ingested orally, it can last at least a day if not more. There are all kinds of MAO inhibitors. They (MAO inhibitors) also enhance a mushroom experience dramatically. I wonder if Joseph was extracting some kind of MAO inhibitor, as well as, other entheogen substances.

But, about the LSD. A one or two hour high? Even a low dose of 150 micrograms will produce a longer lasting high than you mention above.

Take 350 micros and it doesn't give up for up to 12 hours.

My pick is datura, but who knows.

Gramps,

While not proud of the fact, I will admit to a few evenings of LSD use back in the day. I cannot recall the exact dosage - but pretty sure it was in the 20 - 50 mcg range. (350 mcg is a lot of LSD - the highest "safe" dose as I am aware, is 200 mcg, and one can get a nice experience from a dose of 25 - 50 mcg.) Anyway, ours was sorbed onto sugar cube or a piece of absorbent paper. A group of us would do this at the home of a friend. I enjoyed it, but it was illegal and I didn't want to run the risk once I had the experience a couple of times.

We would lie down in a darkened room for onset and were pretty much able to stand up and walk around safely after a few of hours (and even drive home). So, you are right, I should not have said "one or two hours", I should have said "a few hours".

As for the longer term effects (what we used to call "halo effects"), those definitely lasted for longer. But I would not call it a "high". I had one "morning after" experience I will never forget wherein I felt that I had gained great insight into some fundamental physics. And fact was, I did absolutely ace (what for me was) an important test in physics that day. Will never forget that feeling. Anyway, your mileage may vary.


As for the use of monoamine oxidase inhibitors with DMT, I agree that an MAO would extend the effect of the DMT by blocking its catabolic metabolism. Have heard that folks who are on a prescribed MAO should be very careful with DMT. MAO inhibitors work by blocking the catabolism of serotonin, so there would be more of that hanging around as well. Could be an interesting experience, I suppose.

Have you ever tried this? I would be reticent to do so. Sometimes I feel I don't have that many good neurons left anyway.

[_gramps]

DrW wrote:

Gramps,

While not proud of the fact, I will admit to a few evenings of LSD use back in the day. I cannot recall the exact dosage - but pretty sure it was in the 50 mcg range. (350 mcg is a lot of LSD - the highest "safe" dose as I am aware, is 200 mcg, and one can get a nice experience from a dose dose is 25 - 50 mcg.) Anyway, ours was sorbed onto sugar cube or a piece of absorbent paper. A group of us would do this at the home of a friend.

As I recall, would lie down in a darkened room for onset and were pretty much able to stand up and walk around after a few of hours (and even drive home).

As for the longer term effects (what we used to call "halo effects"), those definitely lasted for longer. But I would not call it a "high". I had one "morning after" experience I will never forget wherein I felt that I had gained great insight into some fundamental physics. And fact was, I did absolutely ace (what for me was) an important test in physics that day. Will never forget that feeling. Anyway, your mileage may vary.


As for the use of monoamine oxidase inhibitors with DMT, I agree that an MAO would extend the effect of the DMT by blocking its catabolic metabolism. Have heard that folks who are on a prescribed MAO should be very careful with DMT. MAO inhibitors work by blocking the catabolism of serotonin, so there would be more of that hanging around as well. Could be an interesting experience, I suppose.

Have you ever tried this? I would be reticent to do so. Sometimes I feel I don't have that many good neurons left anyway.

Hi DrW.

Well, I don't know if there is any reason to be ashamed of that.

I don't know what you mean by a safe dosage. For some people, no dosage would be safe, I am guessing. However, it was not uncommon in the late 60s and early 70s to find dosages of 500, or more. Here is the big problem with dosages: unless you know your source well, and are sourced in at the beginning of the chain (manufacturer to wholesaler to retailer to end user) you probably won't have any idea how much you are taking. How do you know how much was on your tab, or in your sugar cube?

It does sound like it wasn't much given the effects you describe.

I, personally, would only do the big trips, and much less frequently, than the small trips more frequently. But, that is just me. From what you have shared here, I don't think you have gone through the full-blown LSD experience. Today, distributors are very wary of kids taking this stuff at a party and tripping too hard (which then leads to the involvement of parents, police, and hospitals), so a typical dose would be around 100 mcgs today.

Try taking 300-400 mcgs on a beach or in the mountains or Goblin Valley, for example. I doubt you would regret doing so, and you would certainly never forget it.

About the DMT with a MAO inhibitor. Yes, I have tried that. In South America, it would go by the name of hoasca, or ayahuasca. But, it is being moved all around the world by certain religious groups. I tried it in Japan, where it was still legal. Again, I wouldn't use any drug without knowing, really knowing, the source, which I did, so I tried it. Both my girlfriend at the time, and I have never regretted trying it, or forgotten how special it was.

Today, religions in the U.S. are allowed to take such a brew as their sacrament. Read the U.S. Supreme Court case, Gonzales vs. O Centro (2006) to get more information. Even the kids take it on Sundays. These religions are starting to sprout up all around the U.S. now that it is legal to experience it within a religious setting.

I have also tried the inhibitors together with mushrooms. That was incredible, but it shouldn't be done without a lot of research into exact dosages.

I also tried datura back in my high school days. I would never, never recommend anyone taking that substance. Very dangerous.

Anyway, fire me a pm if you have more you would like to discuss. I think you would find this book very interesting. It is a great read.

http://www.amazon.com/Pihkal-Chemical-Story-Alexander-Shulgin/dp/0963009605/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350649539&sr=1-1&keywords=alexander+shulgin

[_gramps]

Cont'd for DrW,

Forget the parents' basement. Try it in a place like this:



I was just there for 3 weeks, a month and a half ago. A very, very nice trip. ;) And only an hour and a half from Amsterdam. Extra bonus.

[_lulu]

lulu, Staring at a stone (self-hypnosis) or meditation, etc., do not produce florid psychotic symptoms.

Meditation does produce hallucinations.

Now we need to sort out from the historical record, which hallucinations were physiological, which were substance induced, which were meditation induced, and which were down right lies.

One thing that would help would be a piece of written evidence about datura use by European Americans more or less the same time and location as Joseph Smith beginning his mission.

[_Bob Loblaw]

There is no better response than Mark Twain's:

Some people have to have a world of evidence before they can come anywhere in the neighborhood of believing anything; but for me, when a man tells me that he has "seen the engravings which are upon the plates," and not only that, but an angel was there at the time, and saw him see them, and probably took his receipt for it, I am very far on the road to conviction, no matter whether I ever heard of that man before or not, and even if I do not know the name of the angel, or his nationality either. ...

And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but "hefted" them, I am convinced. I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.

[_Fence Sitter]

How many credible witnesses said that the Indians were responsible for MMM?