If there are 2 of you on a life boat starving, does one of you get to kill and cannabalize the other? Or do you both have a moral obligation to both starve to death?
Do you have a moral obligation to die rather than torture some one?
In the case of the life boat, you are both victims and therefore on equal ground and should starve together
In the second case you could argue that the information you get could saves many lives. Isn't better that one man perish than a whole nation...wait where have I heard this before? Maybe I need to re-think this
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo
Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude
Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits
If there are 2 of you on a life boat starving, does one of you get to kill and cannabalize the other? Or do you both have a moral obligation to both starve to death?
Do you have a moral obligation to die rather than torture some one?
In the case of the life boat, you are both victims and therefore on equal ground and should starve together
In the second case you could argue that the information you get could saves many lives. Isn't better that one man perish than a whole nation...wait where have I heard this before? Maybe I need to re-think this
I would say I have the moral obligation to die. But then I don't have any immediate perceived risk of dying from a terrorist attack. Then again, maybe I'm kidding myself.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
son of Ishmael wrote:I regretted writing this as soon as I pushed the send button. First it really had nothing to do with the OP and I have different perspective on this than most people. On one hand I can say that I don’t approve of torture but on the other hand I have directly benefited from information gained by its use. I had a different frame of mind at the time and I am sorry to admit that I did not look at the Taliban members (and others) as my fellow human beings just LFS’s that needed to be dealt with. (To be clear I have never tortured anybody)
Anyway I apologize for having made the comments. I enjoy this board and don’t want the people here to think I am some right wing nut job. We have bcspace and Droopy for that
I don't think you have any need to apologize. I agree with what DrW said.
son of Ishmael wrote:I regretted writing this as soon as I pushed the send button. First it really had nothing to do with the OP and I have different perspective on this than most people. On one hand I can say that I don’t approve of torture but on the other hand I have directly benefited from information gained by its use. I had a different frame of mind at the time and I am sorry to admit that I did not look at the Taliban members (and others) as my fellow human beings just LFS’s that needed to be dealt with. (To be clear I have never tortured anybody)
Anyway I apologize for having made the comments. I enjoy this board and don’t want the people here to think I am some right wing nut job. We have bcspace and Droopy for that
I don't think you have any need to apologize. I agree with what DrW said.
son of Ishmael wrote:Thanks
Yes, Thanks.
I think military service in the Army or Marine Corps (or as a Navy SEAL), where it can get up close and personal, is likely to temper one's moralistic view here.
by the way: the lifeboat analogy is a bad one. Nobody dies from properly executed water boarding or sleep deprivation.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
News Alert : Spokane ward tops church list at 100% tithing
After being sustained without a dissenting vote, Bishop jesse "waterboard" jesson began to encourage all of his ward to achieve the goal of 100% tithing -this even included the inactives who are over 60% of his ward. jesson told the deseret news that he had honed his motivational techniques at the CIA. he said these motivational techniques often included participatory excercises for ward members. Bishop jesson asked members to wear swimming attire to tithing settlement which was held in the filled baptismal font. he said the settlements were successful beyond measure and attributed much of it to the new environment and to his first counselor ex navy seal jared "killer" peterson and the fact that peterson demonstrated at a ward fireside before tithing settlement and held in the baptismal font area various swimming survival skills( or how to survive waterboarding) with the scout troop volunteers.
elder paul swenson said he really felt the spirit when he found out you could not breathe under water and high priest noah bittinger said he felt the bishop's goal to achieve 100% tithing was a good one but was wondering if the technique used was described in the CHI.
after a week holding tithing settlements in the font bishop jesson commented to the deseret news that there would be 100% tithing as long as he was bishop but he also said there would be lots more funerals.
the brethern are trying to determine if jessons techniques should replace collecting gold from members teeth in south america and other low tithing areas.
kairos wrote:News Alert : Spokane ward tops church list at 100% tithing
After being sustained without a dissenting vote, Bishop jesse "waterboard" jesson began to encourage all of his ward to achieve the goal of 100% tithing -this even included the inactives who are over 60% of his ward. jesson told the deseret news that he had honed his motivational techniques at the CIA. he said these motivational techniques often included participatory excercises for ward members. Bishop jesson asked members to wear swimming attire to tithing settlement which was held in the filled baptismal font. he said the settlements were successful beyond measure and attributed much of it to the new environment and to his first counselor ex navy seal jared "killer" peterson and the fact that peterson demonstrated at a ward fireside before tithing settlement and held in the baptismal font area various swimming survival skills( or how to survive waterboarding) with the scout troop volunteers.
elder paul swenson said he really felt the spirit when he found out you could not breathe under water and high priest noah bittinger said he felt the bishop's goal to achieve 100% tithing was a good one but was wondering if the technique used was described in the CHI.
after a week holding tithing settlements in the font bishop jesson commented to the deseret news that there would be 100% tithing as long as he was bishop but he also said there would be lots more funerals.
the brethern are trying to determine if jessons techniques should replace collecting gold from members teeth in south america and other low tithing areas.
Tithing Settlement interviews in the Baptismal Font, hmmmm.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
MrStakhanovite wrote:But none of that necessitates that he would perform poorly as a Bishop. Most of your complaints tread over moral grey areas, but nothing that directly impacts his ability to fulfill the role of a bishop.
Really?
Doesn't the fact that he was instrumental in developing techniques to extract information from individuals through the use of the un-Christian application of pain and mental anguish kind of mean he has rejected the principles of loving ones neighbour, turning the other cheek etc?
How can a man that is capable of that be worthy to legitimately ask others to live a higher standard?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
DrW wrote:by the way: the lifeboat analogy is a bad one. Nobody dies from properly executed water boarding or sleep deprivation.
All analogies are imperfect. The issue is, when is one permittted to do an otherwise morally reprehensible act in an attempt to save one's own life?
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
