The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

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_Racer
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Racer »

Chap wrote:
Droopy wrote:
<wall of text from his Joanna Brooks blog>



When someone has read that all, please could he or she leave a little note on this thread just to let Droopy know he has a readership here?

It would be a really nice gesture.


Sadly, I read it. For all those who don't have the time, I will attempt to sum up Droopy's 900 page dissertation in a single sentence.

"Joanna Brooks's religious views and opinions don't mesh with mine, so she is a dirty Liberal Marxist with a secret evil agenda against Freedom."

In fact, Droopy could probably save himself wasted hours of typing by using the follwing sentence formula and filling in the blanks depending on The situation.

"XYZ" believes differently than I, Droopy. XYZ is a horrible person and _______________(fill in the blank with one of the following choices)"

A. is a Liberal/ Leftist
B. is A Communist
C. is anti-freedom/US Constitution
D. is Satanic
E. is stupid
F. is all of the above
Tapirs... Yeah... That's the ticket!
_Kishkumen
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Kishkumen »

Racer wrote:Sadly, I read it. For all those who don't have the time, I will attempt to sum up Droopy's 900 page dissertation in a single sentence.

"Joanna Brooks's religious views and opinions don't mesh with mine, so she is a dirty Liberal Marxist with a secret evil agenda against Freedom."

In fact, Droopy could probably save himself wasted hours of typing by using the follwing sentence formula and filling in the blanks depending on The situation.

"XYZ" believes differently than I, Droopy. XYZ is a horrible person and _______________(fill in the blank with one of the following choices)"

A. is a Liberal/ Leftist
B. is A Communist
C. is anti-freedom/US Constitution
D. is Satanic
E. is stupid
F. is all of the above


You got wise on Drippy.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Darth J
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Darth J »

In 1887, Congress passed, and President Grover Cleveland signed into law, the Edmunds-Tucker Act. At the time, Utah was a territory directly under the authority of the federal government. Among other things, the Edmunds-Tucker Act disincorporated the LDS Church and required the Church's assets to be forfeited to the federal government. The Act was directed specifically at the LDS Church's unlawful practice of polygamy.

In 1890, the Supreme Court of the United States upheld the constitutionality of the Edmunds-Tucker Act. Late Corp. of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints v. U.S.

In addition to the LDS Church's brazen defiance of the Judeo-Christian ethic and Western cultural norms on which our country was founded, Mormons in the Utah Territory asserted that under the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, they had a right to practice polygamy. In brazen defiance of the democratic process that is fueled by the free marketplace of ideas, these Mormons turned to unaccountable, unelected tyrants in black robes to give them "rights" that were contrary to the will of the people.

However, in 1878, the Supreme Court of the United States held that there is no First Amendment right to practice polygamy. Reynolds v. United States

As Chief Justice Morrison Waite explained in Reynolds,

Polygamy has always been odious among the northern and western nations of Europe, and, until the establishment of the Mormon Church, was almost exclusively a feature of the life of Asiatic and of African people. At common law, the second marriage was always void, and from the earliest history of England polygamy has been treated as an offence against society....

From that day to this we think it may safely be said there never has been a time in any State of the Union when polygamy has not been an offence against society, cognizable by the civil courts and punishable with more or less severity. In the face of all this evidence, it is impossible to believe that the constitutional guaranty of religious freedom was intended to prohibit legislation in respect to this most important feature of social life. Marriage, while from its very nature a sacred obligation, is nevertheless, in most civilized nations, a civil contract, and usually regulated by law. Upon it society may be said to be built, and out of its fruits spring social relations and social obligations and duties, with which government is necessarily required to deal. In fact, according as monogamous or polygamous marriages are allowed, do we find the principles on which the government of the people, to a greater or less extent, rests. An exceptional colony of polygamists under an exceptional leadership may sometimes exist for a time without appearing to disturb the social condition of the people who surround it; but there cannot be a doubt that, unless restricted by some form of constitution, it is within the legitimate scope of the power of every civil government to determine whether polygamy or monogamy shall be the law of social life under its dominion.


Regarding the relationship between free exercise of religion and the rule of law, the Chief Justice said,

Laws are made for the government of actions, and while they cannot interfere with mere religious belief and opinions, they may with practices. Suppose one believed that human sacrifices were a necessary part of religious worship, would it be seriously contended that the civil government under which he lived could not interfere to prevent a sacrifice? Or if a wife religiously believed it was her duty to burn herself upon the funeral pile of her dead husband, would it be beyond the power of the civil government to prevent her carrying her belief into practice?

So here, as a law of the organization of society under the exclusive dominion of the United States, it is provided that plural marriages shall not be allowed. Can a man excuse his practices to the contrary because of his religious belief? The permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government could exist only in name under such circumstances.


In fact, it is quite clear that in light of the intellectual, moral, and philosophical environment in which our Founding Fathers drafted this sacred charter, the Constitution was never meant to protect licentious, immoral conduct like polygamy. See: Marci Hamilton, "The 'Licentiousness' in Religious Organizations and Why it is Not Protected under Religious Liberty Constitutional Provisions," 18 Walmart. & Mary Bill of Rts. J. 953 (2010)

I am grateful that our divinely inspired Constitution prohibits small groups from imposing their agenda on the rest of society by going to the courts in attempt to redefine marriage. The checks and balances set up by the Founders, under the guidance of divine providence, made it possible for our country to avoid having these lawless Mormons create supposed "rights" to do whatever they want, regardless of the societal norms on which our sacred Constitution was established.
_Darth J
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Darth J »

Since 1959, when the LDS Church decided that its members no longer needed to know how their tithing money was being spent, the Church has asserted that it has a constitutional right to keep its finances secret from the courts and other branches of government.

There is no legal basis for this assertion. There is no constitutional doctrine that allows a church to refuse to disclose its finances when required by court order, valid discovery requests, or other legal processes. While there is generally no legal requirement in the United States for churches to disclose their finances, that lack of an affirmative duty is not equivalent to a constitutionally-protected privilege from disclosing financial records in legal proceedings. See: Lynda L. Hinkle, "Tithing to the Vortex: The Secrecy of Financial Records in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [sic] and the Case of D.I. v. Corp. of the Bishops of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [sic]," 10 Rutgers J. of L. & Relig. 5 (2008)

Churches are liable for their secular conduct that harms other people. An example of this can be found in a 2007 Washington Court of Appeals case, Doe v. Corp. of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In Doe, the Washington court upheld a jury verdict against the LDS Church for outrage when two teenage girls told their bishop that their stepfather was molesting them, and in response, the bishop told the girls not to tell anyone about it because it would break up their family and cause gossip in the ward.

Since churches are liable for tortious, non-religious harm to other people, and can be compelled to pay money damages for such harm, it is a non sequitur that the First Amendment is violated by requiring churches to disclose their finances in court proceedings. In fact, such a privilege would violate the Establishment Clause because it would favor religious organizations over non-religious civil defendants, who can be compelled to disclose their finances when the law allows such discovery.

One circumstance in which civil defendants may be compelled to disclose their finances is when there is a claim for punitive damages. The law on punitive damages varies by state, but generally punitive damages can be awarded as a deterrent to punish defendants who have harmed others through deliberate or reckless (i.e., knowingly disregarding a danger of harm) conduct. Typically, a jury may consider a defendant's relative wealth in order to asses what amount of punitive damages will adequately deter the defendant from such harmful conduct in the future.

In 2007, the Supreme Court of Oregon upheld a ruling by a trial court in which the LDS Church was ordered to disclose its finances to a plaintiff who was seeking punitive damages. http://archive.sltrib.com/printfriendly ... ype=NGPSID (The order itself is not online). The plaintiff's claims against the Church involved allegations that he was sexually abused as a child by a home teacher.

Although the Oregon Supreme Court did not articulate its reasoning for upholding the trial court's order of disclosure, this is another victory in the ongoing battle to prevent entities from inventing constitutional rights for themselves out of thin air---rights that the inspired Founders of this sacred charter never intended (protecting churches from liability for child sex abuse). And we have our divinely-inspired Constitution to thank for it.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Fence Sitter »

I think the other 2/5 are the parts necessary to hold the priesthood. Maybe BC is right, it isn't a racial thing, it's all about fractions.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Darth J
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Darth J »

For 50 bonus points, who can explain what question the OP is begging?

(49 points for reading the OP, 1 point for answering this question)
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Darth J wrote:For 50 bonus points, who can explain what question the OP is begging?

(49 points for reading the OP, 1 point for answering this question)


You want me to narrow it down to just one?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_Darth J
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Darth J »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
Darth J wrote:For 50 bonus points, who can explain what question the OP is begging?

(49 points for reading the OP, 1 point for answering this question)


You want me to narrow it down to just one?


There is one primary question, yes.

And I mean other than, "Why should anyone care what the Doctrine and Covenants says?"
_Analytics
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Analytics »

Darth J wrote:For 50 bonus points, who can explain what question the OP is begging?

(49 points for reading the OP, 1 point for answering this question)

The main one is that Joanna Brooks is a radical feminist and a Leftist.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Darth J
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Re: The Founding and its Cultural Mormon Enemies

Post by _Darth J »

Analytics wrote:
Darth J wrote:For 50 bonus points, who can explain what question the OP is begging?

(49 points for reading the OP, 1 point for answering this question)

The main one is that Joanna Brooks is a radical feminist and a Leftist.


Okay, I mean a question being begged specifically in this OP, not by Droopy generally.
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