"It's Not Pertinent to my Salvation!"

[_RockSlider]

So a bit more on that basketball game.

He said he had two tickets and very much wanted me to go with him. I'm sports agnostic but we had developed a close relationship and I agreed. Levis and T shirt seemed appropriate for a BYU BB game, he showed up in this 40's suit, which he seemed to always wear. Part way down the Provo Canyon he pipes up, "Oh by the way, do you mind if we stop by a little reception before the game?" I did not think much of it at the time and agreed.

So, we walk into this building very close to the BB arena on BYU campus, and up rushes Merrill J. Bateman to us upon seeing us walk in the door. Hand on shoulder enthusiastically shaking Wayne's hand and welcoming him warmly. Bateman is in a Tux. It was an annual dinner that they put on for members of the Benson Institute before sending them off to the BB game. We are talking top of the line catering, and Tux level dress code. Remember here I am in Levis and a T-Shirt and Wayne in his 50 year old suit. My popper friend, me, a lot of very formal dress and some of the best food I've ever eaten.

I found out that night that my good friend was filthy rich. Members of the Benson Institute have donated very very large sums of money or property to the Church. In his case, he had owned a very large grocery chain in Arizona and had bought up lands and properties everywhere (like the old church he lived in).

I also found out that night that he had an unusual humor, but mostly such a humble loving man.

I miss you my dear friend!

[_bcspace]

This statement always hacks me off so much

Me too. Ultimately we all will have to accept the truth no matter what it is or how small and unimportant it seems. If God cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance and unbelief is sin, then unbelief in the smallest thing cannot be looked upon and therefore IS pertinent to salvation. Thus we have to say, as the father of the child with the dumb spirit said in Mark 9, "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."

[_Dr. Shades]

I have gotten so sick of it, I have taken to responding with the question, "How can you be so sure?"

Don't keep us in suspense. How do they respond to that rejoinder?

[_Drifting]

Here is a comprehensive and official list of those things that are pertinant to your Salvation:

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in Him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey His commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

1. We must be baptized.
2. We must receive the laying on of hands to be confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. Brethren must receive the Melchizedek Priesthood and magnify their callings in the priesthood.
4. We must receive the temple endowment.
5. We must be married for eternity, either in this life or in the next.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to:

1. Love God and our neighbors.
2. Keep the commandments.
3. Repent of our wrongdoings.
4. Search out our kindred dead and receive the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
5. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
6. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
7. Have family and individual prayers every day.
8. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
9. Study the scriptures.
10. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.
Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow His direction in our individual lives.

http://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princi ... n?lang=eng

In retrospect I think "Pray, Pay, Obey" adequately summarises this list...

[_Drifting]

It is also worth noting this summary of criteria for what is pertinent to the level of salvation that you are granted (again, this is official):

Celestial

“They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized, … that by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit.” These are they who overcome the world by their faith. They are just and true so that the Holy Ghost can seal their blessings upon them. (See D&C 76:51–53.) Those who inherit the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, who become gods, must also have been married for eternity in the temple (see D&C 131:1–4). All who inherit the celestial kingdom will live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ forever (see D&C 76:62).

Through the work we do in temples, all people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory.

Terrestrial

These are they who rejected the gospel on earth but afterward received it in the spirit world. These are the honorable people on the earth who were blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ by the craftiness of men. These are also they who received the gospel and a testimony of Jesus but then were not valiant. They will be visited by Jesus Christ but not by our Heavenly Father. (See D&C 76:73–79.)

Telestial

These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)

Outer Darkness

These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–35, 44–48.)

http://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princi ... t?lang=eng

[_Drifting]

And also:

Heavenly Father prepared a plan for our salvation. As part of this plan, He sent us from His presence to live on earth and receive mortal bodies of flesh and blood. Eventually our mortal bodies will die, and our spirits will go to the spirit world. The spirit world is a place of waiting, working, learning, and, for the righteous, resting from care and sorrow. Our spirits will live there until we are ready for our resurrection. Then our mortal bodies will once more unite with our spirits, and we will receive the degree of glory we have prepared for (see chapter 46 in this book).

(emphasis mine)

http://www.LDS.org/manual/gospel-princi ... d?lang=eng

[_Kishkumen]

To me, this is the most serious flaw in LDS culture. As a culture we value knowledge and expertise, but only insofar as such knowledge and expertise have practical application: plumbing a sink or wiring a house, doing open heart surgery, balancing the books or setting-up the IPO for a company you hope is going to score big-time. Anything else--besides of course Gospel knowledge, but then only the basics--is considered superfluous, and quite possibly dangerous.

In my view a very serious flaw....

I recommend McLemore's article in the most recent Sunstone. He sees the same flaw you do, and he makes a great case against this artificial limitation placed on people's spiritual maturity.

https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/magazine/current-issue/

[_Kishkumen]

So a bit more on that basketball game.

He said he had two tickets and very much wanted me to go with him. I'm sports agnostic but we had developed a close relationship and I agreed. Levis and T shirt seemed appropriate for a BYU BB game, he showed up in this 40's suit, which he seemed to always wear. Part way down the Provo Canyon he pipes up, "Oh by the way, do you mind if we stop by a little reception before the game?" I did not think much of it at the time and agreed.

So, we walk into this building very close to the BB arena on BYU campus, and up rushes Merrill J. Bateman to us upon seeing us walk in the door. Hand on shoulder enthusiastically shaking Wayne's hand and welcoming him warmly. Bateman is in a Tux. It was an annual dinner that they put on for members of the Benson Institute before sending them off to the BB game. We are talking top of the line catering, and Tux level dress code. Remember here I am in Levis and a T-Shirt and Wayne in his 50 year old suit. My popper friend, me, a lot of very formal dress and some of the best food I've ever eaten.

I found out that night that my good friend was filthy rich. Members of the Benson Institute have donated very very large sums of money or property to the Church. In his case, he had owned a very large grocery chain in Arizona and had bought up lands and properties everywhere (like the old church he lived in).

I also found out that night that he had an unusual humor, but mostly such a humble loving man.

I miss you my dear friend!

He sounds like quite an amazing and interesting fellow. Being the self-conscious person that I am, however, I don't know that I would have handled this situation as well as you did.

[_Yoda]

A partial clip from something I posted here at MDB when I first started:

"A man named Wayne Phelps (the great-great-great grandson of WW) lived in my ward. Wayne was a hermit. He lived in an old beater Mormon Church that was put out of commission many years before. He drove an old beater car. He always wore a suit which appeared to have been purchased in the 1940's. He was a brilliant thinker and a much studied Mormon mystic. Wayne was not liked, well not liked is strong ... just not accepted and definitely unknown to the members. Like mentioned Wayne appeared to be a poor hermit. I spent a lot of time with Wayne in the relief society room of that old beater church where he lived. He invited me to go with him to a basketball game one night (turns out he is an honored member of the Benson Institute if that means anything to anyone ... but that's a whole other story).

The last church meeting I ever attended was a High Priest group meeting where Wayne made a comment on a simple scripture. He said something like "It just so happens I spent 10 hours yesterday pondering this exact scripture ... he then proceeded to give an incredible interpretation of the scripture.

The quorum burst out in laughter. The high priest group leader went to the board and drew a bulls' eye, and explained ... if you confine your study to what is in the instruction manual you are right here (pointing at the center of the bulls' eye). If you speculate on what has been written in the manual then you are right here (pointing at the next outer ring), and if you speculate on material outside of the manual, like Wayne has done then you are way out here (pointing way off target). Ironic thing was, Wayne's "outside material" was the scripture.

I could no longer take it. I stood up, walked out and have never returned."

That was about 2002. What a shame that we silence those that could share with us those pearls that should not be cast before swine.

I think it is awful that those men, who claim to hold the priesthood, were that blatantly rude. I don't blame you for walking out. I probably would have taken it a step further, and told them all off before I walked out, and invited Wayne to join me if he wanted to discuss the scripture with someone intelligent.

[_Infymus]

You're talking Mormonism 101, the first steps of warding off apostasy.

It is not pertinent to my salvation.
Everything will be made clear in the next life.
Put your questions on the shelf and just obey God.

If you don't obey any of these, then you end up in the bullying hands of the Mormon Apologists.

I was told all of these and more.

I recall realizing just what a convoluted mess the Plan Of Salvation(tm)(c)(r) was and how it was full of logical holes. Studying and unraveling it was one of my first steps in leaving Mormonism. Nobody had answers so I kept being sent up the line from EQ President to Bishop to SP. It stopped at the SP where he wouldn't even hear any of it and I was told that I was kicking against the pricks and that wickedness never was happiness.

Mormonism doesn't want you to question - they want you to obey.