Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

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_Tobin
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Tobin »

Albion wrote:But it is based on what Joseph Smith "taught" else you wouldn't be a Mormon. If it wasn't based on what Smith said much of what you believe as a Mormon would not be "known" to you....temple rituals, for instance, which have no foundation in scripture. Or are you saying you would have thought, been inspired, to ask God about them on your own?


Of course I do. And I don't accept the temple and attached ceremonies as they are currently presented. They need work.

Also, your idea that being endowed or going to a place where God is is not scriptural is absurd. The prophets and God's people were all oriented towards the temple or tall mountains when there were none. They stood in holy places and learned from the Lord. Your ignorance of the scriptures is apparent by your comment and failure to recognize that. Temples (or holy places) and learning directly from God are an integral part of the scriptures.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Albion
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Albion »

Ah, the old attack the messenger response.
_Tobin
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Tobin »

Albion wrote:Ah, the old attack the messenger response.


No, I'm simply pointing out the message is non-sense and faulting the messenger for espousing it. Read the Bible. It is plain as day and talks often about temples or the Lord's annointed going into the mountains and speaking with him. In fact, Jesus Christ himself went onto a mountain and was transfigured and endowed from on high. It can't get much more clear than that about the importance of these places and conversing with the Lord there.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Albion
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Albion »

You are changing the subject. I referenced Mormon temple rituals, secret tokens and handshakes, hurdles that have to be passed in order to reach heaven. No one is debating that there were temples in ancient times...no one is debating whether people communed with God in holy places. I am talking of Mormon temple content...something you would not have known about without Smith's claims.
_Tobin
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Tobin »

Albion wrote:You are changing the subject. I referenced Mormon temple rituals, secret tokens and handshakes, hurdles that have to be passed in order to reach heaven. No one is debating that there were temples in ancient times...no one is debating whether people communed with God in holy places. I am talking of Mormon temple content...something you would not have known about without Smith's claims.


You are't seeing the big picture Albion. I don't care what Joseph Smith's views necessarily were. I do however see the need for a temples. I do see the need for holy places to commune with God and places to honor him. And as I've pointed out often, Joseph Smith was a man. His message is one should seek God and do what God says to do instead. And one good way to do that is to seek him in holy places and commune with him directly.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Chap
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Chap »

Tobin wrote:
Albion wrote:You are changing the subject. I referenced Mormon temple rituals, secret tokens and handshakes, hurdles that have to be passed in order to reach heaven. No one is debating that there were temples in ancient times...no one is debating whether people communed with God in holy places. I am talking of Mormon temple content...something you would not have known about without Smith's claims.


You are't seeing the big picture Albion. I don't care what Joseph Smith's views necessarily were. I do however see the need for a temples. I do see the need for holy places to commune with God and places to honor him. And as I've pointed out often, Joseph Smith was a man. His message is one should seek God and do what God says to do instead. And one good way to do that is to seek him in holy places and commune with him directly.


How does on decide whether a place is 'holy' or not?

I notice that the 'views' of the Prophet of the Restoration are to be discounted.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Drifting
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Drifting »

Tobin wrote:
Albion wrote:You are changing the subject. I referenced Mormon temple rituals, secret tokens and handshakes, hurdles that have to be passed in order to reach heaven. No one is debating that there were temples in ancient times...no one is debating whether people communed with God in holy places. I am talking of Mormon temple content...something you would not have known about without Smith's claims.


You are't seeing the big picture Albion. I don't care what Joseph Smith's views necessarily were. I do however see the need for a temples. I do see the need for holy places to commune with God and places to honor him. And as I've pointed out often, Joseph Smith was a man. His message is one should seek God and do what God says to do instead. And one good way to do that is to seek him in holy places and commune with him directly.


Do you believe secret handshakes will be required as part of the entry criteria to the Celestial Kingdom?

I thought you had direct experience that God will commune directly with you, and in person, especially if you are a sinner not looking for God but in the very act of sinning.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Albion
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Albion »

Well, Tobin, I think your response is evasive to the premise I posted. I think, too, that a good study of Hebrews and the role of the High Priest in the temples of ancient times will help you understand the status of temples post resurrection.
_Tobin
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Tobin »

Albion wrote:Well, Tobin, I think your response is evasive to the premise I posted. I think, too, that a good study of Hebrews and the role of the High Priest in the temples of ancient times will help you understand the status of temples post resurrection.


And I think it is highly presumptive of you to know the mind of God Albion. Might I suggest you seek him instead and learn from him. That is after all the difference between you and I. My answer is seek God and do what God says to do. Your answer is to tell me what God can or can not do (or does or does not mean).
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Chap
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Re: Do historical facts matter? or is LDS 'teflon' to them?

Post by _Chap »

Tobin wrote:
Albion wrote:Well, Tobin, I think your response is evasive to the premise I posted. I think, too, that a good study of Hebrews and the role of the High Priest in the temples of ancient times will help you understand the status of temples post resurrection.


And I think it is highly presumptive of you to know the mind of God Albion. Might I suggest you seek him instead and learn from him. That is after all the difference between you and I. My answer is seek God and do what God says to do. Your answer is to tell me what God can or can not do (or does or does not mean).



But of course it is not highly presumptive of Tobin to know the mind of God.

You can do it too. Just apply the electrodes ...
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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