Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

EAllusion wrote:The reason I wrote my post is because of the assertion in this thread that if you accept scholastic causal analysis, Aquinas's proof of God follows. No it doesn't. It gets you to Aquinas's prime object of explanadum, but leaves a gap between that and a deity.


Except, I didn't see anyone claiming that Aquinas' proof of God follows, including myself. From my post:

Because on Aristotle's and Aquinas' analysis of what the concept of cause means, a First Cause necessarily follows. Necessarily as in logically necessary, in exactly the same way that the concepts of "2", "3" and "+" allow one to necessarily conclude that 2+3 = 5. If you accept their analysis of what it means for something to be a cause, then the argument is over, a First Cause necessarily exists.


Note, no use of the word "God" there, nor anywhere else in the post (that I wrote, the quotes will have the word "God"). I chose "First Cause" deliberately.
_MrStakhanovite
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

I want to address something with EA, but I'm between classes and I'm afraid I'll forget to post this later:

So, can the existence of God be philosophically demonstrated? If God's essence is His existence, and His essence remains in principle philosophically unknowable to us, how could it be demonstrated? In fact, Aquinas claims that it can be demonstrated that there is a god, and that there is only one god. That God's essence remains in principle philosophically unknowable to us is the basis for Aquinas' denial that the existence of God can be demonstrated a priori. And any reliance upon knowledge of the essence that is only known to us by faith would by that fact cease to be properly philosophical. However, we have seen that Aquinas relies upon the distinction between nominal definitions of terms and essential definitions of the subjects referred to by those terms. To demonstrate the existence of a god one may use nominal definitions that appeal to a god as the cause of various phenomena. This is to argue a posteriori. The appeal to these nominal definitions forms the basis for Aquinas' Five Ways (Summa Theologiae, Ia.2.3) all of which end with some claim about how the term ‘god’ is used.

Again, some will claim that Aquinas isn't really interested in proving the existence of God in these Five Ways. After all, he already knows the existence of God by faith, and he is writing a theological work for beginners. What need is there of proving the existence of something he already knows exists? The Ways are very sketchy, and don't even necessarily conclude to a single being, much less God or the Christian God. In addition, Aquinas claims that God's essence is his existence and that we cannot know His essence, so we cannot know His existence. Aquinas must really intend the Five Ways as less than proofs; they are more like incomplete propaedeutic considerations for thinking adequately about God in Sacred Theology. In effect, Aquinas doesn't think philosophy can in fact demonstrate the existence of God.

But as elsewhere these claims are ambiguous and suffer at the hands of Aquinas' own texts. In the first place, the objection that he already knows by faith that God exists has some merit in it, if we understand it as directed at a reading of Aquinas that would have him attempting a foundational enterprise of grounding religious faith in what is rationally demonstrable by philosophy. But that reading is anachronistic, and does not attend to the context of Summa Theologiae. There is no reason to think that Aquinas thinks the proofs are necessary for the rationality of religious faith. They are part of the enterprise of showing that Sacra Doctrina meets the condition of a science as described by Aristotle in the Posterior Analytics, an issue that is different from the question of the broad rationality of religious faith.

In addition, the objections end up denying what Aquinas writes immediately before the Five Ways—that the existence of a god is “demonstrable.” (Summa Theologiae, Ia.2.2) And his introduction of the Five Ways begins by saying that the existence of a god can be “proved” in Five Ways. To counter the objection that he must mean something informal here by “demonstrate” and “prove”, one need only recognize the explicit use of Aristotle's Posterior Analytics to sort through the question. He cites Aristotle's distinction between demonstrating the existence of some subject, and going on to demonstrate properties of that subject by appeal to the essence of the subject as cause of those properties. The first kind of demonstration is called demonstration quia, the second demonstration propter quid. In order to have any science at all, the subject matter must exist. So demonstration quia must precede demonstration propter quid. If you want to have a science of unicorns, you have to show me that there is at least one unicorn to be studied. There is no science of what does not exist. So there are two demonstrative stages in any science, the demonstration of the existence of the subject (quia), and the demonstration of the properties of the subject through its essence (propter quid). Aquinas' denial that the essence of God can be known philosophically is a denial that one can have propter quid scientific understanding of God through philosophy. It is not a denial that there can be demonstration quia of the existence of a god. There is no reason to deny that Aquinas thinks the Five Ways are proofs or demonstrations in the most robust sense, namely that which he appeals to as set out by Aristotle in the Posterior Analytics.

Notice however the back and forth between the use of ‘God’ as a proper name and the use of ‘god’ as a common noun. One source of the ambiguity in the objections come about because it is claimed that Aquinas does not think one can demonstrate the existence of God. But in terms of the Posterior Analytics one cannot demonstrate the existence of anything under a proper name. One can point at Socrates, and say “see, Socrates is alive.” One cannot do that with God. In addition, one cannot give a formal argument for Socrates existence using ‘Socrates’. One can only demonstrate in the relevant sense using common nouns, since such nouns are the only ones that have definitions, either nominal or essential. So strictly speaking it is true that Aquinas doesn't think one can demonstrate the existence of God in the Five Ways. But he doesn't claim that one can. He recognizes the difference between ‘God’ used as a proper noun, and ‘god’ used as a common noun. (Summa Theologiae Ia.13.9) The ambiguity is pronounced in Latin which lacks the indefinite article ‘a’, where in English we can disambiguate between ‘God’ and ‘a god’. The situation is exacerbated by translations that simply translate ‘deus’ in the Ways as ‘God’ in English. In the Five Ways, he does not use ‘god’as a proper name, but as a common noun having five different nominal definitions. So each of the ways concludes that there is “a god.” So it is also true that the Five Ways do not as such prove that there is only one god. But it is for that reason that Aquinas himself thinks one must actually argue additionally that a god must be utterly unique, and thus that there can be only one, which he does several questions after the Five Ways(Summa Theologiae Ia.11). Of course, once the utter uniqueness of a god has been shown, one can begin to use “God” as a proper name to refer to that utterly unique being.

It is the utter uniqueness and singularity of a god that undermines the objection that whatever the philosophical arguments terminate in, it is not the god of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, who is only known by faith. That is simply to deny Aquinas claim that the god Jews, Christians, and Muslims believe in can be known, but only partially by philosophical analysis. If the demonstrations work, as Aquinas thinks they do, what other god would the Jew, Christians, and Muslims believe in?

Finally, the sketchy character of the Ways reflects the fact that they are directed at beginning students. However the audience of beginners that Aquinas has in mind are not beginners in Philosophy. They are beginners in Sacra Doctrina. As we have seen, in the medieval educational setting such beginners would be thoroughly steeped in the philosophical disciplines before ever being allowed to study Sacra Doctrina. So Aquinas could expect his readers to know the much more extensive and complete arguments he was gesturing at with the Five Ways, arguments to be found in detail in other figures like Aristotle, Avicenna, and so on, as well as in other works of his own, the Summa Contra Gentiles for example. In short, even if the Five Ways are judged to be unsound demonstrations, a judgment that requires close analysis and examination of the filled out arguments, there is no reason to suggest that Thomas took them any less seriously as demonstrations or proofs in the fullest sense.
_madeleine
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _madeleine »

palerobber wrote:i can't tell if you're saying belief is delusional here or not.


ha!

No one has convinced me, either way.

Atheism doesn't align to my experience. Faith does.

The old philosophical story, can't remember who it was about, but some guy says, "Nothing is real!" ...steps out in traffic, and is run over.

or in some stories, he stubs his toe on rock.

Philosophical musings on the lack of reality, deny reality, which could be delusional. Or not.

"Man is the dream of the dolphin." ??? That hasn't been my experience, but how would I know if it were, or not?

You see. I'm a right an proper nihilist who stepped out in traffic and was run over by faith.

Without this experience, I would be an atheist still.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_Tarski
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _Tarski »

Someone explain this to me:

(P6) If the series of movers were to go on infinitely, then there would be no first mover. (so what?)

(P7) If there were no first mover, then there would be no motion. (Really? Why?)

(C4) There is a first mover

What is wrong with an infinite regression? How about an infinite regression that extends only a finite time into the past? (Yes that is logically possible--think Zeno).
Here is a little toy thought experiment just to orient intuition.
Consider the set of reciprocal positive integers; 1/2,1/3,1/4,......
Abbreviate to RPI. Order them by magnitude. Say that 1/n "causes" 1/m if 1/n is the largest RPI before 1/m. In this case we say that 1/n is a cause of 1/m. This is a stipulative definition of "cause". None are without "cause". There is no first cause. Also, if we imagine that each such number 1/n is thought to be assigned to a time 1-1/n years in the past then the whole infinite regression extends into the past for less than a year.



More random thoughts:

If Aristotle's notion of motion is replaced by something modeled on Newtonian motion wherein only nonuniform motion requires the intervention of a causing force, then what?

What if we consider a (pre-quantum) gauge theory or a general relativistic kind of theory (force is really just curvature) where the motion of the complete closed system follows something like a geodesic in some phase space and is in that sense "unforced"? The notion of "cause" seems to lose its sense (at least its classical sense) in this global cosmic setting.
Is there a first physical cause in a Hartle-Hawking cosmology?

If these are logical possibilities, then how can the conclusion be a matter of logic?

Basically I am claiming that Aristotle's notion of motion is not necessary and in any case not really defined precisely enough to bear the burdon of a deductive analysis.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Drifting
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _Drifting »

Tarski wrote:Someone explain this to me:

(P6) If the series of movers were to go on infinitely, then there would be no first mover. (so what?)

(P7) If there were no first mover, then there would be no motion. (Really? Why?)

(C4) There is a first mover



If there were no first mover would that, by extrapolation, mean there wouldn't be any shakers either?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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_Chap
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _Chap »

We should be grateful to Mr S. for doing his best to set out Aquinas' argument in the clearest way that he can.

So we have a chain of premise and deduction with elements like this:


...

(P2) If something is moved to being X, then it is potentially but not actually X.
(P3) If something moves a thing to be X, then it (the mover) is in a state of actuality relevant to X.

(C1) If something were to move itself to be X, then it would both potentially but not actually X and also in a state of actuality relevant to X.

....



This kind of thing is supposed to work like a well-oiled mechanical clock with parts made of finely machined metal, rigid and hard. If this wheel turns, it makes that wheel turn, then that one, then ... once it starts the end is inescapable. You can't read the argument in good faith and then disagree.

The only problem is that the machine is not constructed out of metal: the words like "potentially but not actually" or "a state of actuality" are, despite their impressive sounds not solid concepts tried and tested against the world around us, but English words translating Latin words translating Greek words describing how a few people tried to talk about the world on a speculative basis a long, long time ago. Attempts to use them to talk about the physical world, such as Aristotle's description of motion, simply get it wrong. Things do not need something to move them: leave them completely alone and they just keep moving in a straight line forever.

Building a deductive mechanism out of words like these is about as likely to give us real knowledge as building a clock out of marshmallow cog-wheels is likely to help us tell the time.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Sethbag
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _Sethbag »

huckelberry wrote:The excellent example of this of ridiculing transubstantiation by divorcing it from its meaning has been mentioned several times. I might add that the meaning and context of transubstantiation is not some academic point for a small group of experts but is something understood by millions of believers.Treating it like pancakes is empty.

Perhaps the real message here is this: what meaning could change the ridiculousness of transubstantiation?

If transubstantiation guaranteed that everyone would make it to the bus stop on time in the morning, would that meaning be enough? Probably not. Too petty. Ok. If Transubstantiation doctrine implied that a cure for cancer would follow, would that meaning be sufficient? Yes? No? What does it mean that the meaning given to the doctrine by its believers renders it less subject to ridicule than a doctrine with equivalent mechanics, but with a different attached meaning?

So what part of the pancake comparison is so objectionable? That the wafer used is compared to a pancake? Or that the part of Elvis in the one doctrine stands for the part of Jesus in the other?

What if it weren't a pancake? What if it were a piece of bread? Or even a communion wafer? What if we changed the comparison to something like this?

"If you think saying Latin words over a communion wafer will turn it into the body of Elvis Presley you’re insane, but if you think the same about the communion wafer and Jesus you’re a Catholic."

Does this criticism still carry the same weight as the pancake version? Is it still as objectionable? I'm curious what you think.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Sethbag
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _Sethbag »

MrStakhanovite wrote:That is where Sam Harris enters the picture, he doesn’t provide them with squat, he pretty much disarms them.

MrStakhanovite wrote:Do you expect Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins to be spending their time in front of the masses attempting to dismantle Alvin Plantinga? Do you think "the masses" would appreciate such a debate? Would it move anyone?


This has nothing to do with philosophy. I don’t care about the quality of their arguments against God, what I do care about is that the entire package sucks. There is nothing to explore after boring rants about religion but shallow books about the origins of morality or the illusion of free will.

Sam’s fans deserve more, and if he is going to make a living off being this kind of icon that gets 20k for a speaking gig, he damn well should.

Why does Sam Harris have to provide people with a new set of beliefs to follow? His message is that God almost certainly does not exist. What part of his making that statement imposes upon him the obligation to give people some sort of alternative life path?

Atheist means without God. It does not mean without God, and by the way here's a new readymade belief system for you to adopt and model your life on. That's up to the individual.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_huckelberry
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _huckelberry »

Sethbag wrote:
huckelberry wrote:The excellent example of this of ridiculing transubstantiation by divorcing it from its meaning has been mentioned several times. I might add that the meaning and context of transubstantiation is not some academic point for a small group of experts but is something understood by millions of believers.Treating it like pancakes is empty.

Perhaps the real message here is this: what meaning could change the ridiculousness of transubstantiation?

If transubstantiation guaranteed that everyone would make it to the bus stop on time in the morning, would that meaning be enough? Probably not. Too petty. Ok. If Transubstantiation doctrine implied that a cure for cancer would follow, would that meaning be sufficient? Yes? No? What does it mean that the meaning given to the doctrine by its believers renders it less subject to ridicule than a doctrine with equivalent mechanics, but with a different attached meaning?

So what part of the pancake comparison is so objectionable? That the wafer used is compared to a pancake? Or that the part of Elvis in the one doctrine stands for the part of Jesus in the other?

What if it weren't a pancake? What if it were a piece of bread? Or even a communion wafer? What if we changed the comparison to something like this?

"If you think saying Latin words over a communion wafer will turn it into the body of Elvis Presley you’re insane, but if you think the same about the communion wafer and Jesus you’re a Catholic."

Does this criticism still carry the same weight as the pancake version? Is it still as objectionable? I'm curious what you think.


That the wafer is compared to a pancake? I do not find that particularly offensive. I find it indifferent. The same with the other variations I do not care at all. Turning something into Elvis does not matter to me. Elvis did a good job of singing heart break hotel however.

Trying to be more specific I notice that in believers understanding of transubstantiation Latin words do not do anything. It is understood that God does.
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Re: Stak Contra Sethbag: Sam Harris sucks!

Post by _Chap »

Sethbag wrote:Why does Sam Harris have to provide people with a new set of beliefs to follow? His message is that God almost certainly does not exist. What part of his making that statement imposes upon him the obligation to give people some sort of alternative life path?

Atheist means without God. It does not mean without God, and by the way here's a new readymade belief system for you to adopt and model your life on. That's up to the individual.


Yup.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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