The sin of not believing

[_Chap]

The longest utterance ascribed to Jesus on the subject of who gets into heaven and who does not is here in Matthew 25:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

No reference to religious opinions is made here. The 'righteous' are so categorized purely on the basis of what they did.

Since I do not believe that the Bible is a consistent set of utterances by a self-revealing deity, or even (in the relevant parts) a consistent set of utterances by a historical Jesus, I don't have a problem if someone comes up with a text that seems to demand belief for salvation. But it is clear that a strong strand of early Christian thought represented in the discourse above did not feel that anything but goodness was required for salvation.

[_Stormy Waters]

This is my biggest issue with religion, or a God that casts eternal judgments based on faith.

Thanks for mentioning the eternal aspect of it. I will be punished for eternity because I couldn't believe.
It's not like I will get to take a remedial class in the afterlife to redeem myself for my lack of faith. No. It's permanent. No redemption possible. No forgiveness. No second chances. All Because I didn't believe in him.

[_Stormy Waters]

Does he deserve to be punished?

If he is truly Christ-like would he fail to recognize the Savior and his Church in this life or the next? If so, then yes, he deserves to miss out on blessings and no, he was probably not Christ-like in the first place.

There are a variety of scriptures to illustrate this such as Matthew 19:16-20, Matthew 7:21, Ephesians 4:11-14, D&C 76:101, etc.

There you have it. The end result of this line of thinking. You can't be an atheist and be "Christ-like."

[_Philo Sofee]

There is no THE Bible point of view as if it is one monolithic consistent organic entirety on its own with a singular philosophical view of the world, man, God, and the universe. This myopic interpretation is based on a disbelief in what the Bible actually says, so it is re-interpreted with our modern views to cover up the blatant and silly contradictions which occur throughout its pages. Craig is simply silly in his claim.

[_brade]

On Tuesday I take my daughter to one of the wards my wife and I attended for several years for something called Scripture Tots. A friend of ours and few other members from that ward do a two hour play time with kids of parents who stay for the adult seminary session that happens in the chapel (confession: I take my laptop and go into the Relief Society room and work). Anyway, sometimes I listen in and this Tuesday the instructor (my seminary teacher form high school) taught everyone that the unpardonable sin is to deny Christ (not believe that he is the Son of God and so on) after you've received the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Little did everyone in the chapel know that while being so taught somebody in the same eternal position as Cain and Satin was working just down the hall.

We were also taught that not explicitly choosing Christ was the same as choosing to follow Satin. Thus, I'm a Satin following Son of Perdition.

[_Tarski]

On Tuesday I take my daughter to one of the wards my wife and I attended for several years for something called Scripture Tots. A friend of ours and few other members from that ward do a two hour play time with kids of parents who stay for the adult seminary session that happens in the chapel (confession: I take my laptop and go into the Relief Society room and work). Anyway, sometimes I listen in and this Tuesday the instructor (my seminary teacher form high school) taught everyone that the unpardonable sin is to deny Christ (not believe that he is the Son of God and so on) after you've received the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Little did everyone in the chapel know that while being so taught somebody in the same eternal position as Cain and Satin was working just down the hall.

We were also taught that not explicitly choosing Christ was the same as choosing to follow Satin. Thus, I'm a Satin following Son of Perdition.

I have some nice sheets made of satin.

(satan)

[_Drifting]

On Tuesday I take my daughter to one of the wards my wife and I attended for several years for something called Scripture Tots. A friend of ours and few other members from that ward do a two hour play time with kids of parents who stay for the adult seminary session that happens in the chapel (confession: I take my laptop and go into the Relief Society room and work). Anyway, sometimes I listen in and this Tuesday the instructor (my seminary teacher form high school) taught everyone that the unpardonable sin is to deny Christ (not believe that he is the Son of God and so on) after you've received the Gift of the Holy Ghost. Little did everyone in the chapel know that while being so taught somebody in the same eternal position as Cain and Satin was working just down the hall.

We were also taught that not explicitly choosing Christ was the same as choosing to follow Satin. Thus, I'm a Satin following Son of Perdition.

From the Gospel Principles manual: Chapter 46

Outer Darkness

These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–35, 44–48.)

Hard to enforce against a defence of "How was I supposed to know that was the Holy Spirit when it felt just like reflux?"

So, in Mormonism it is better to have never sought Christ than to have sought him, found him, then rejected him.

Hmmm...

So, you can gamble on hitting the Celestial Kingdom but if you fail and deny Christ you go to Outer Darkness...or, you can play it safe and not bother about seeking Christ in this life and you are therefore guarenteed not to go to Outer Darkness. Then when you die and meet Christ you can accept him (much easier after you've seen him in person) and get the kingdom below the Celestial. On what panet it is it better to have not tried in the first place, than to have tried and failed?

What a nutty plan.

[_Fence Sitter]

What a nutty plan.

God loved us so much that as an eternal all powerful and all knowing being he created everything in the earth (universe?) just so we could come here and get bodies, be tested (if you are one of the (un)lucky few to actually get tested here) and eventually make our way back to live with him. BUT if we screw up here in the 70 or so years we have, then we are screwed for eternity. This isn't a nutty plan, it is a plan created by beings who have no clue what eternity means or what true love is.

It is also a plan that is used extensively by people in power to hold onto that power. When you convince people you know what God wants them to do you control them completely.

[_Philo Sofee]

What a nutty plan.

God loved us so much that as an eternal all powerful and all knowing being he created everything in the earth (universe?) just so we could come here and get bodies, be tested (if you are one of the (un)lucky few to actually get tested here) and eventually make our way back to live with him. BUT if we screw up here in the 70 or so years we have, then we are screwed for eternity. This isn't a nutty plan, it is a plan created by beings who have no clue what eternity means or what true love is.

It is also a plan that is used extensively by people in power to hold onto that power. When you convince people you know what God wants them to do you control them completely.

In recent years this is precisely the way I have come to understand this so-called "plan" we have all been taught from 1 month old on.......

[_huckelberry]

So the entire question is: are people sufficiently informed to be held morally responsible for failing to believe in God? The biblical answer to that question is unequivocal... In Paul’s view God’s properties, His eternal power and deity, are clearly revealed in creation, so that people who fail to believe in an eternal, powerful Creator of the world are without excuse -William Lane Craig

Why is it a sin not to believe in God? Why is it important to God for us take his existence on Faith? Will God punish me for not being able to take his existence on faith?

Think of it like this. Let's say an perfectly moral person arrives at the judgement bar. His only failing is that for whatever reason he did not believe in God. Good person. Great Parent. Dedicated years to humanitarian service. Does he deserve to be punished? It just seems so absurd to be that there exists this all-knowing being who is somehow offended by a human beings inability to believe in him.

You can say that I'm wrong as an atheist. That I've come to the wrong conclusion. That I'm ignorant in regards to the philosophical arguments for God. That's fine. But to say that I deserve to be punished for coming to the wrong conclusion... that's something else entirely.

If it is a sin, why are you upset? Every body sins. It is not a monopoly of one belief group. If it is a sin I am unsure it is worse than Craig's sins.(or mine or my Pastors)

Some people think of the problem with a background assumption that God only forgives Christians. That idea is probably wrong.

Now if a person thinks that because they are atheists they are stationed above sin God, I suspect, will be less impressed with them than they are of themselves.