Tithing on the Wages of Sin

[_sock puppet]

A TBM acquaintance won $15,000 on a lottery ticket a few weeks back. He was relieved that it was not a large enough amount to get picked up in the local media and show to other TBMs that he's been 'gambling'--sinning.

He knows that I am a decades long apostate, but knew the tithing regimen. He's invited me to lunch and then asked my input on whether he should pay tithing on his 'wages of sin'. He laughed off my suggestion that he'd feel best, most cleansed, by giving all $15,000 to Christian Children's Fund.

We then spoke of the indefiniteness of one's 'increase' against which the 10% tithe factor is applied. He was well aware that 'increase' is a slippery term, but he reminded me that if anything, the vagueness is used to guilt TBMs into erring on the side of including more in 'increase' than less. He couldn't answer me when I asked him how people that are getting by, paycheck to paycheck, have any 'increase' in the way others that are able to accumulate wealth have 'increase'. I layered that notion with perhaps 'increase' was the terminology so that only those 'getting ahead' are supposed to pay 10% of that increase.

Our conversation then moved to the 'sin' aspect. Previously, he's felt that his lottery playing has created net losses for him, but given this $15,000 he's now won more than he has wagered. He's contemplating repenting, including confessing to his bishop. He's not done this before as a gambling 'loser' but is now considering it because he's a 'winner'. I asked what the difference was, and he could not quite put a finger on it, at least not until I suggested that perhaps he feels guilty now having taken money from others through a mere game of chance. He did think that was why he might be feeling a greater need for catharsis now than before, when in essence he was 'giving' rather than 'taking' from the lottery funds.

Then we arrived at the final topic: would God want funds ($1,500) from the gambling winnings? We both agreed that there did not seem to be any issue with the LDS Church accepting tithing donations on capitalist profits, even in eras when much of it was by today's standards made through exploitation of others. But at last, I noted that the LDS Church had, If I recall correctly, returned tithes paid on ill-gotten booty in a Ponzi scheme after it unraveled.

I think my TBM acquaintance was more confused at the end of our lunch than his thinking on the issue was beforehand. We did lunch at a pricier restaurant than I had ever had lunch with him before, he ordered off the higher end of the menu (and encouraged me to do so as well), atypically he ordered an appetizer and left a hefty tip to the server.

For me, the worst part of such a situation is that I bet I'll never hear what he decides.

[_zeezrom]

Thanks for sharing this story, Sock Puppet. It brings back all the memories of deciding when to pay and not to pay.

One of the houses we sold made quite a lot in profit for us to put into our next house. The question came up during a conversation between my wife and I: Should we pay tithing on our home equity from the recent sale? I justified not paying tithing on it because we would not actually see it until we stopped owning a house. Maybe the church could take tithing on our estate at death, I thought. It turns out we lost all that money in our recent move out of Utah so it's a damn good thing we didn't pay tithing on it!

[_sock puppet]

Thanks for sharing this story, Sock Puppet. It brings back all the memories of deciding when to pay and not to pay.

One of the houses we sold made quite a lot in profit for us to put into our next house. The question came up during a conversation between my wife and I: Should we pay tithing on our home equity from the recent sale? I justified not paying tithing on it because we would not actually see it until we stopped owning a house. Maybe the church could take tithing on our estate at death, I thought. It turns out we lost all that money in our recent move out of Utah so it's a damn good thing we didn't pay tithing on it!

Interestingly, what you point up are concepts that are addressed in tax law. Realization of income and recognition of income.

When you sold the house, you 'realized' gain (the net amount received from the sale, over the amount of your basis, the amount invested by you in that house). Before you sold it, your house was appreciating in value, but you did not 'realize' the increase in value until you sold it. But it was going up in value while you owned it. For tithing purposes, should a TBM who paid $150k for a house on Jan 1, 2012 pay $1,200 tithing because at the end of that year the house's value is $162k? It was an 'increase' in value, right?

Normally, for tax law purposes you 'recognize' as part of your taxable income gain when it is realized. That is, when you sell something and have a net gain, not only is it realized but you typically have to include that gain in your taxable income that year.

Gain might not be recognized (taxable) when realized. There are rules that relieve you from ever paying tax on certain gains, e.g. if you lived in the house long enough and you had not rented it out before selling it.

There are other rules that delay recognition (taxation) to a later time. E.g., if you re-invest the gain into a similar property--like you did with the gains from the sale of your house, into a new house--within a certain time frame, then you do not recognize (pay tax) on the net gain you realized from the sale of your house.

It sounds like you chose not to consider the net gain from the sale of your house as tithing 'increase' at that time because you plowed that gain into the purchase of your next house.

I think that was a perfectly rational choice, even for the TBM you then were. Many TBMs use tax rules in determining their 'increase' on which to tithe.

[_Tobin]

Tithing isn't that difficult of a concept. Dedicate 10% of your increase to helping the poor and needy each year. It's a wonderful concept and that is how it should be lived. And don't give it to the LDS Church. Personally, or through a reputable charity (though I still think personally doing things is much better), donate and use the funds. In fact, do more than 10% if you are able. And if you are poor and needy (ie can't pay your bills and are drowning under debt), for heavens sake pay that stuff off first. But be free with anything you have otherwise.

[_zeezrom]

Tithing isn't that difficult of a concept. Dedicate 10% of your increase to helping the poor and needy each year.

Tithing is used to build the kingdom of God on the earth, which has very little to do with helping the poor and needy.

http://Mormon.org/faq/purpose-of-tithing/

[_Tobin]

Tithing isn't that difficult of a concept. Dedicate 10% of your increase to helping the poor and needy each year.

Tithing is used to build the kingdom of God on the earth, which has very little to do with helping the poor and needy.

You build the kingdom of God on earth by helping, taking care of and showing a kindness to one another. If tithing isn't used for that, then it is being misused and why I caution against giving it to the Mormon Church.

[_zeezrom]

You build the kingdom of God on earth by helping, taking care of and showing a kindness to one another. If tithing isn't used for that, then it is being misused and why I caution against giving it to the Mormon Church.

You aren't talking about tithing. You are talking about charity. Apples and oranges.

[_Drifting]

What is the difference between purchasing a lottery ticket and depositing money into an investment scheme?

As far as I can see, the only difference is the odds of getting a return on the capital invested. Both take an initial stake, both have risks of losing your initial investment, both have a chance of making you money from doing nothing other than taking a risk (gamble).

So, if the Church does't want tithing from lottery winnings, but does want tithing from investment 'winnings'. Then at what level of odds does it become the wages of sin?

[_Tobin]

You build the kingdom of God on earth by helping, taking care of and showing a kindness to one another. If tithing isn't used for that, then it is being misused and why I caution against giving it to the Mormon Church.

Then you aren't talking about tithing. You are talking about charity. Apples and oranges.

I don't think that would be the way God would see it. After all, isn't God about people What use is money to God? The only ones interested in money would be men, to enrich themselves, to build monuments and organizations for themselves, to build edificies to their glory - none of these things are of God. When you feed the hungry by using money to buy food, when you help the needy by using money to buy them shelter or cloth them, or to buy medicine for the sick - THESE are the only uses of money that God would be interested it and precisely what tithes should be used for. You may view tithing as something to be used for other purposes but I would tell you these purposes are NOT of God and not how tithes should be used.

[_zeezrom]

Then you aren't talking about tithing. You are talking about charity. Apples and oranges.

I don't think that would be the way God would see it. After all, isn't God about people What use is money to God? The only ones interested in money would be men, to enrich themselves, to build monuments and organizations for themselves, to build edificies to their glory - none of these things are of God. When you feed the hungry by using money to buy food, when you help the needy by using money to buy them shelter or cloth them, or to buy medicine for the sick - THESE are the only uses of money that God would be interested it and precisely what tithes should be used for. You may view tithing as something to be used for other purposes but I would tell you these purposes are NOT of God and not how tithes should be used.

I need to refer you to the church's explanation of how tithing is used:

Constructing temples, chapels, and other buildings.
Providing operating funds for the Church.
Funding the missionary program (This does not include individual missionary expenses.)
Preparing materials used in Church classes and organizations.
Temple work, family history, and many other important Church functions.
Education.

How can Heavenly Father continue his work on the earth without those items mentioned above? How does feeding the poor help God build a church (kingdom) on the earth? Frankly, it doesn't help Heavenly Father, and He knows it. Likely, the fear of His kingdom failing keeps him up at night, especially now that rival gods are beginning to pose a threat to his position.