Tithing on the Wages of Sin

[_Darth J]

Why doesn't Tobin just start his own church? He concedes the LDS Church is apostate. God explains everything to Tobin. And Tobin has it all figured out. So why isn't this modern prophet, who understands the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham better than Joseph Smith, caring for his own flock, instead of lurking in the LDS Church?

Since Tobin claims to have seen God, he seems like a better candidate for prophet than Thomas S. Monson or the apostles who haven't made that claim in decades.

Plus, he has made clear in this thread that God doesn't need any money, so there shouldn't really be any working capital needed to get a new church going.

Why would God give Tobin an understanding superior to that of Joseph Smith, whom Tobin assures was "a nincompoop that didn't have a clue what he was talking about," and reveal Himself so readily to Tobin, and yet have Tobin sitting unknown somewhere in the pews in sacrament meeting?

God certainly didn't do that with Moses or John the Baptist or Paul or Joseph Smith. So why would God give this powerful message to Tobin for only his private use, instead of restoring these truths through Tobin?

[_sock puppet]

Tobin,

I think you are drawing the distinction that zeezrom has identified between charity and tithing.

You've indicated that God does not need tithing to build up a church-organization on earth.

I would like you to describe God's need for charity among human beings, and why God does not himself provide for the needy, through the exercise of his omnipotence.

Because God has provided each of us. The world would be a much better place if we would express our love of God and each other in service and kindness with each other.

Would the world be a much better place if God would provide food for the hungry, heal the sick and infirm, etc. That's a rather cruel God that would permit suffering by millions as a tool to encourage some to be generous to others, a God that values cultivating charity among human beings over doing what is in his power to alleviate suffering from hunger and disease.

[_Fence Sitter]

Would the world be a much better place if God would provide food for the hungry, heal the sick and infirm, etc. That's a rather cruel God that would permit suffering by millions as a tool to encourage some to be generous to others, a God that values cultivating charity among human beings over doing what is in his power to alleviate suffering from hunger and disease.

I can see Dr Phil interviewing God.

"So God you allowed mankind his agency so that they would be able to reap the benefits of helping each other. How did that work out?"

[_sock puppet]

Why would God give Tobin an understanding superior to that of Joseph Smith, whom Tobin assures was "a nincompoop that didn't have a clue what he was talking about," and reveal Himself so readily to Tobin, and yet have Tobin sitting unknown somewhere in the pews in sacrament meeting?

God certainly didn't do that with Moses or John the Baptist or Paul or Joseph Smith. So why would God give this powerful message to Tobin for only his private use, instead of restoring these truths through Tobin?

I don't think those characters--Moses, John the Baptist, Paul or Joseph Smith--should be presumed to be better than Tobin. Is it possible that God would give Tobin a greater understanding than those other four? Sure. Why not? Just because three date back to antiquity and one a hundred fifty years does not make their claims regarding divinity any more credible than Tobin's. There's no evidence for any of it. "Why?" indeed. That asks for reasons, asking for reasons for the irrational.

Why would, Tobin, with more understanding be sitting in SM pews somewhere? It makes as much sense as JSJr trying to join the Methodist Church in 1828, eight years after he claims a visual and audio manifestation of God in 1820 that supposedly told JSJr to join none of the existing churches.

None of this religion crap adds up. It is nonsensical. It is contrary to reason. It fills a couple of emotional needs, and charlatans leverage this religious myth to exert power and gain influence over the emotionally needy. Religious leaders play on people's base fears, fears of an afterlife and a God that will judge them harshly and punish them for living life on their own terms. They're bottom feeders of the most despicable kind. Even insurance companies don't stoop that low--they only provide a surety against hazards for which there is evidence of possibly occurring.

[_sock puppet]

Would the world be a much better place if God would provide food for the hungry, heal the sick and infirm, etc. That's a rather cruel God that would permit suffering by millions as a tool to encourage some to be generous to others, a God that values cultivating charity among human beings over doing what is in his power to alleviate suffering from hunger and disease.

I can see Dr Phil interviewing God.

"So God you allowed mankind his agency so that they would be able to reap the benefits of helping each other. How did that work out?"

Now, add to this absurdity the omniscient/free agency overlay, Mormon style. God has known in advance what each of us would do in each situation of our lives, but to teach each of us, such as me, about myself, he let others suffer just so I would realize the limits of my charity.

Dr Phil: "So God, what did a 4 year old in Africa learn about himself, the limits of his charity from his starving and dying of malaria? What did the 4 year old learn about you, God, and your love for him as his stomach became distended from hunger, the constancy of the hunger gnawing on him constantly for months before died? Or was he a mere tool in your scheme of things to show the affluent of the world how unworthy they are to live with you?"

[Guest]

Would the world be a much better place if God would provide food for the hungry, heal the sick and infirm, etc. That's a rather cruel God that would permit suffering by millions as a tool to encourage some to be generous to others, a God that values cultivating charity among human beings over doing what is in his power to alleviate suffering from hunger and disease.

We live in a world in which people die from being overweight in this country while others in the world die of starvation. I believe if we pooled our resources and distributed them equitably and thoughtfully thoroughout the word, many of these things you point out would be greatly diminished if not solved. And as you know, I don't believe in a magical God that is going to ride in and grant us our every wish. God has granted us intelligent, foresight, knowledge, wisdom, and the ability to make a difference to improve our condition. Whether we choose to do so or not is up to us.

[Guest]

And as you know, I don't believe in a magical God...

Yes you do.
You believe He can magically appear to sinners, in fact you told us He did that trick with you.

[_Tobin]

Why doesn't Tobin just start his own church? He concedes the LDS Church is apostate. God explains everything to Tobin. And Tobin has it all figured out. So why isn't this modern prophet, who understands the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham better than Joseph Smith, caring for his own flock, instead of lurking in the LDS Church?

Joseph Smith quickly found out what happens when multiple people are receiving revelations. Tobin's Church would have to be a party of one. (I think it already is.)

Funny, that was what I was thinking too.

D&C 38:27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

[_Tobin]

I don't think those characters--Moses, John the Baptist, Paul or Joseph Smith--should be presumed to be better than Tobin. Is it possible that God would give Tobin a greater understanding than those other four? Sure. Why not? Just because three date back to antiquity and one a hundred fifty years does not make their claims regarding divinity any more credible than Tobin's. There's no evidence for any of it. "Why?" indeed. That asks for reasons, asking for reasons for the irrational.

Why would, Tobin, with more understanding be sitting in SM pews somewhere? It makes as much sense as JSJr trying to join the Methodist Church in 1828, eight years after he claims a visual and audio manifestation of God in 1820 that supposedly told JSJr to join none of the existing churches.

None of this religion crap adds up. It is nonsensical. It is contrary to reason. It fills a couple of emotional needs, and charlatans leverage this religious myth to exert power and gain influence over the emotionally needy. Religious leaders play on people's base fears, fears of an afterlife and a God that will judge them harshly and punish them for living life on their own terms. They're bottom feeders of the most despicable kind. Even insurance companies don't stoop that low--they only provide a surety against hazards for which there is evidence of possibly occurring.

Actually, the more likely answer is that you don't understand them at all. Each of the prophets sought the Lord and to do what he asks. And if you want to know if they or I am speaking the truth about there really being a God, you need to do likewise.

[_sock puppet]

We live in a world in which people die from being overweight in this country while others in the world die of starvation.

A world as designed and of this God's making.

I believe if we pooled our resources and distributed them equitably and thoughtfully thoroughout the word, many of these things you point out would be greatly diminished if not solved.

Yes, mankind can fix what God got wrong.

And as you know, I don't believe in a magical God that is going to ride in and grant us our every wish.

Not asking God to grant me my wish. Just wondering why it wouldn't be this benevolent God's wish to feed the hungry, heal the sick, etc.

God has granted us intelligent, foresight, knowledge, wisdom, and the ability to make a difference to improve our condition. Whether we choose to do so or not is up to us.

More interested in teaching some of us a lesson than reducing suffering. Top-drawer kind of a guy, that God.