Which is it?

[_Bret Ripley]

The progressiveness of the system ensures that very high income earners carry a much larger burden than others when it comes to paying for all the different services the government provides.

And rightfully so. As a friend of mine on another forum is fond of saying: a single parent working two minimum-wage jobs to support his family has relatively little need for stealth bombers to protect his global interests.

[_krose]

Then I start paying my second mortgage called student loans.

When are you going to start taking responsibility for your own circumstances, and stop blaming others for your plight?

Surely you exercised your freedom as an American and chose to take on debts like mortgages and student loans. Or did someone (some evil socialist or illegal immigrant, perhaps) force you to apply for and accept them?

I have had a few debts in my lifetime (very few), but I never borrowed more than I could handle, and always paid them off myself, without whining about how unfair it was that I had to pay debts and taxes and buy food.

[_ajax18]

Alright, this is still an anonymous forum so I'll out myself on this particular issue to stop the guess work, and get a straight perspective from you. Yes I grew up in a trailor for a time when my Dad was getting started. My Dad is the first generation Repbulican and the first to be disgusted with the socialist/communist policies of the democratic party enough to no longer call himself a southern democrat. When I lived in a trailor we were Republicans and when I worked for $8/hr I was a Republican. Regardless of how much you make, if you hold a job, you're ultimately better off being a Republican. Democratic policies really are hurting the entire nation and ultimately even the welfare people.

I work about 60-70hrs/wk (very inconvenient hours for me I might add) and make $110k/year. Sounds like a lot right? Perhaps it was before the government decided to just keep printing money. It's not much and it took me way too long to get even this far. Keep in mind it's all legitimate and heavily taxed income brought with a very expensive degree that the government did not pay for but I still pay for only after I've paid the government. I'm not a construction contractor using illegal immigrant slave labor who didn't have to invest a dime into education costs. I know several of those guys who are pulling in $250k/year (off the books of course). And they want to talk about justice for immigrants? Why aren't they paying for immigrant healthcare and expenses instead of pushing it off onto the state? That's why they hired illegals in the first place. American citizens won't work for that, so they're replaced by immigrants who will. The labor union core of the democratic party is really a house turned against itself. I liked the idea of labor unions and better working conditions. But that's not what Democrats are doing by promoting, aiding, and abetting illegal and mass immigration. They might win the election by buying these cheap votes, but American working conditions will continue to deteriorate. And who will win? Only the wealthiest people who have enough capital to run these big businesses. Just as in latin America now, it will be in North America, only capital will make money, labor will be worthless.

[_ajax18]

When are you going to start taking responsibility for your own circumstances, and stop blaming others for your plight?

My point is that my income is not nearly as high as it looks to the IRS.

We're done talking Krose. I was happy to discuss differences of view with you but I see nothing productive coming from trading insults with you.

[_beastie]

ajax,

I asked you a question that is related to this conversation on a different thread I can no longer locate, so am uncertain you ever answered it.

On that thread, you indicated that the poor in Appalachia took responsibility for their lives while the poor in the African-American community have not. Can you share your justification for that belief?

by the way, the time period in which it appears you dad left the democratic party is likely the same time period in which hoards of southern whites also abandoned the democratic party. Not coincidentally, that period was also the time in which the democratic party became the party that was more supportive of civil rights. Do you think that also influenced your father's decision?

People usually "make" decisions on a level below actual consciousness, and then create post-hoc reasons to justify those decisions, which are often made on the basis of things like tribal affiliation. In other words, I believe that the exodus of white southerners from the democratic party was really caused by the civil rights issue, and that the story of democrats being communists or socialists was created as a later post-hoc justification. The truth is that the republican party also long supported things like unions and equitable pay.

[_Kevin Graham]

Bcspace's comments are very much like the stupidity I hear from Right Wingers at work. They love to assert that Obama is the reason why more people became dependent on government aid after the economic collapse.

I guess in their view, the economic collapse itself, which was entirely independent of Obama's "policies", had nothing to do with that upswing.

They love to rely on these silly correlation = causation fallacies, something for which folks like Brackite are notorious. You know, doing things like pulling out charts showing that more people are on food stamps under Obama than Bush, therefore Obama's "policies" must be doing something to make people get on food stamps.

This is pure ignorance of how the system works. To get on food stamps all you need to do is apply and be eligible. Obviously more people became eligible after Bush damn near destroyed our economy, so what's left? Is bcspace suggesting Obama urged Americans to get on welfare? I don't remember him ever going on TV telling people, "Hey remember the Food Stamp option!"

No, this is idiot thinking. Obama did absolutely NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, to increase the number of welfare recipients. People did that on their own because they were left jobless, homeless or both. This all happened due to economic factors that preceded Obama. If people want to assert otherwise then they're going to have to provide evidence of some "Obama policy" they keep alluding to, instead of just expecting us to take it for granted.

But what upsets me about this issue more than anything is that it pretty much reveals the fact that most Republicans don't give a flying damn about the poor. They demonize them at the drop of a hat if it makes them feel better. There is no attempt to understand, only to blame and hate. And this is just one of many examples of Republicans showing their true colors. Of course Jason and Bob will run in and accuse me of broad brushing the lot of them, but the fact is we keep having these kinds of discussions and the Republicans are always making these dumb arguments about entitlements for those in need, proving this is the BS that weighs on their minds. These guys don't like to be lumped in with these folks, but they never stand up to them when these issues arise.

I don't think anyone should feel ashamed about receiving government aid. After all, it was their taxes that paid for that as well. Many, MANY people were middle class folks who paid their taxes for a long time before the Bush economy destroyed their dreams, leaving many of them in financial ruin. So what's wrong with them trying to cash in on their own tax contributions over the years? The government can't discriminate against them just because idiots on the Right don't want to see the number of recipients increase. To suggest Romney would have done something to prevent tens of millions of applicants from apply and receiving those benefits, is just a flat out lie. No President in his right mind would do that, so why do they attack Obama? What's wrong applying for food stamps? To me there is no difference between this and the considerable number of Republican Mormons who have no problems running to the Bishop store house when they are in a financial bind.

[_ajax18]

On that thread, you indicated that the poor in Appalachia took responsibility for their lives while the poor in the African-American community have not. Can you share your justification for that belief?

I'll get into that if you can explain to me how importing more poverty and unskilled labor into a country that can't provide jobs for it's own people is good for the American worker.

by the way, the time period in which it appears you dad left the democratic party is likely the same time period in which hoards of southern whites also abandoned the democratic party. Not coincidentally, that period was also the time in which the democratic party became the party that was more supportive of civil rights. Do you think that also influenced your father's decision?

Not really. My Dad first started voting in the 70s and conincidenally left Presbyterianism for Mormonism after leaving home for the first time. Nearly everyone in WV is white so I doubt that entered into my grandfathers mind much either. Coal and labor unions was what it was about. Now the labor unions have destroyed industry in WV and not many people live there anymore.

Now I've shared and I've got a question for the liberals. Were you liberal when you were Mormon or did this come at the same time as you left the Church?

[_Jason Bourne]

Well here you go Kev buddy! BC is a dip stick and a radical right winger loon. Course I think Bob is correct in pointing out that you seem to be becoming on the left what he is on the right. I hold no blame to the increase in numbers on government assistance to anyone other than a bad economy. I am glad we have resources to help them. Yes Obama inherited a bad economy. Though I disagree that you can lay it all at the feet of Bush. Personally I think this has been building for a lot of years. The question becomes whether the policies of the past four years have been correct, enough or wrong. I don't know that I have the answer for that. The recovery has been anemic at best. I also question that this recession is worse than the late 70s and early 80s though I do think global factors makes recovery more difficult.

Anyway I am all for helping people put in tough times and am happy to pay some taxes to do so.

[_Brackite]

But what upsets me about this issue more than anything is that it pretty much reveals the fact that most Republicans don't give a flying damn about the poor.

So most Republicans don't care about the poor??? Do most Democrats care about the poor??? How do Democrats these days care more about the poor than Republicans???

[_ajax18]

So most Republicans don't care about the poor??? Do most Democrats care about the poor??? How do Democrats these days care more about the poor than Republicans???

I guess their version of charity is to be generous with other peoples money. If you want to help the poor, help the poor. You don't need a special tax law passed to give more of your money away to the poor. You could give it away right now if that were what you wanted. Democrats don't care about the poor. The poor were just a means used to win an election.