For former Mormons who became atheists

[_Lightworker]

I've experienced enough ESP to say it is inherent in humans , they have the ability allready, its just whether or not they listen to it. And what you call god ... I would say is trying to tell us its the natural state of being.

Meaning after this life , there is no private thoughts and feelings ... except if you made a concerted effort to vield them.
But then that would be apparent and telling of the nature of your thoughts.

Esp I think is inherent in all humans. I think atheist brush it off as something else. But, still I think it is a gift. Just like the conscience is a gift. If ignored it doesn't seem to work as well. I believe the way the Bible describes it, its all gifts of the same spirit, of what we all are anyway. We are created with a body with a spirit and certain talents or gifts.

Well I kind of think this way except I have learned that their are what seem to be infinite dimensions. They are separated from each other and it takes a portal to cross dimensions. The portal is the axis mundi it goes through the Unity. Therefore thoughts are separate in their dimension (bardos in Buddhism or heaven and hell) but the communication is what we call imagination or esp nonetheless. "In my father's house their are many mansions". Spirits shapeshift into visions to communicate, among many other methods.

I've been reading a bit lately on Magick ... It starts with the suspension of disbelief? Pretty much blind faith?
And then you work from there on your experience with that. Not dissimilar to what Mormons do. Or even to those dealing with science and athiesm. What I think a lot of science followers miss , is that the advances in science started with the suspension of disbelief. And following the curriculum putting faith in the scientists , is no different in mental practice than being a rank and file member.

that's the thing. Joseph Smith was a magician, in my opinion. I think he was also an alchemist due to the ability of the magic to cause a burning in the bosom Holy Ghost mystical experience. That only comes from the Unity as far as I know, and that can only be done by a competent spell caster. Basically what is happening is the analogy of turning lead into gold, the refining fire burns the darkness away and purifies and transmutes the heart. That is what alchemy is all about anyway. He was indeed a true prophet, but what happened when he mixed his ego into it I don't know. Ego based magic is dark magic. Ego + God = Demons according to our spirit guides. Only the demons will respond to ego based desires. You may get what you want but it comes with a price.

by the way I don't read much about magic (the k always makes it sound so gothic!) at all I just watch the full audio surround sound rainbow energy theater run by spirits in my third eye and inner ear for my education, along with my girlfriend's talents for confirmation. We channel a lot of the same spirits but we have different ways of perceiving it, again, different gifts or talents.

[_Alfredo]

[quote="Alfredo]>>>All you have to do to prove me wrong is define your terms and show that a contradiction exists which isn't simply semantic.<<<[/quote]
What you have "bolded" is textbook goal post moving. Anyone that tracesbthis will see that when i refuted Dr Shades' claim. Now you would try to claim that it is a question of semantics...which it is not. The two statements i illustrated were both contradictory accurate and true. This was the only measure of the original challenge....but now, you would propose another measure in order to acquire some elusive satisfaction for yourself. But what you have done is simply propose your own statements and claim that your new statements must surely prove my example wrong. But you have not proven anything, sans the inability to grasp this concept.
Again, upon seeing Dr Shades in the doorway and to say that Dr Shades is
In the room is an accurate statement.....and true
Not in room is an accurate statement....and true
To try and claim that the doorway has some magical power that enables someone to be in the doorway while also being in both rooms to some degree or another simply proves the point further.
Your biggest error, so far, is not understanding the original statement made by Dr Shades and my response. Again, you are trying to manipulate (move) the circumstances and framework of the argument (goalposts) to fit your desired result....
And fyi that does not qualify as a rebuttal

Having trouble editing the below...sorry, ridiculous in-flight internet must be the cause!


was not abssemis to define he contradiction still exists.

[quote]your first half and second half are not contradictory as they are both wrong.[/quote]
You are spectacularly awful at explaining yourself.[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

OK, sub...

All you have to do is tell us exactly what you mean by "Dr. Shades" and your debate with me can be over. I'll tell you what I think of your definition as it relates to the determining the truth value of the statement.

Just so you can be sure to address my point properly, I'll put it to you this way:

"Dr. Shades is in the room" and "Dr. Shades is not in the room" are both true statements if you mean "(part of) Dr. Shades is in the room" and "(part of) Dr. Shades is not in the room".

If our goal is to determine whether the statement is true or false, I can't think of any other way to define "Dr. Shades" to accomplish this goal. If you are claiming both statements are true, you haven't accomplished anything until you tell us what you mean. All you can really say is that the statements could be true.

[_Lightworker]

Wow, this can really be a time suck! I'm not going to be on here nearly as much as others but I did want to give my 2 cents to the anti and wavering Mormon crowd about atheism.

Although I respect every sincere belief and disbelief, I simply feel sorry for atheists. I don't want to be condescending because atheists are quite intelligent and logical for the most part unlike a lot of believers. That is their strong point. I just think atheists are really missing out. Ex Mormon atheists in particular because Mormonism is such a powerful Spirit filled religion, unlike most of the other hypocritical Sunday only religions out there Mormons understand sacrifice for God and living the teachings every day as a spiritual practice. I think Mormonism does get people closer to God than other beliefs. Members that turn away tend to take that for granted.

Here I am channeling spirits, one foot in this mortal world and one in the immortal, witnessing all kinds of miracles that atheists don't even believe in. Not just me, but my friends as well, many of them are channels. I'm not just some whack nut with luny beliefs (I have opinions but I keep belief out of it as much as possible unless it is based on knowledge). Many people I know are telepathic, clairvoyant, empathic, see auras/energy, and have had experiences of Unity as well as synchronicity and communion with plant, animal, human, alien, demon, and angel spirits. This is PROOF via experience of Spirit and God, simply put.

The atheist or even staunch agnostic is simply never going to experience or believe such things as long as they keep scoffing and being lazy and ignorant, not looking into why people have spiritual practices or why people are mystics. Not taking the time or making the sacrifice to change their lives to make them more in harmony with what is the central theme in all religions, which is LOVE.

The skeptic is always looking "out there" for answers, outside of themselves. They are unwilling to look within and align their lives with what is the spiritual core of their being, and thereby find God, along with evidence that can satisfy the drive for obtaining knowledge beyond blind faith. Evidence only comes after the inward quest. After letting go of everything others say and all outward opinion and taking a long, sincere, deep look within, comes the knowledge.

[Guest]

Wow, this can really be a time suck! I'm not going to be on here nearly as much as others but I did want to give my 2 cents to the anti and wavering Mormon crowd about atheism.

Although I respect every sincere belief and disbelief, I simply feel sorry for atheists. I don't want to be condescending because atheists are quite intelligent and logical for the most part unlike a lot of believers. That is their strong point. I just think atheists are really missing out. Ex Mormon atheists in particular because Mormonism is such a powerful Spirit filled religion, unlike most of the other hypocritical Sunday only religions out there Mormons understand sacrifice for God and living the teachings every day as a spiritual practice. I think Mormonism does get people closer to God than other beliefs. Members that turn away tend to take that for granted.

Here I am channeling spirits, one foot in this mortal world and one in the immortal, witnessing all kinds of miracles that atheists don't even believe in. Not just me, but my friends as well, many of them are channels. I'm not just some whack nut with luny beliefs (I have opinions but I keep belief out of it as much as possible unless it is based on knowledge). Many people I know are telepathic, clairvoyant, empathic, see auras/energy, and have had experiences of Unity as well as synchronicity and communion with plant, animal, human, alien, demon, and angel spirits. This is PR possiblyOOF via experience of Spirit and God, simply put.

The atheist or even staunch agnostic is simply never going to experience or believe such things as long as they keep scoffing and being lazy and ignorant, not looking into why people have spiritual practices or why people are mystics. Not taking the time or making the sacrifice to change their lives to make them more in harmony with what is the central theme in all religions, which is LOVE.

The skeptic is always looking "out there" for answers, outside of themselves. They are unwilling to look within and align their lives with what is the spiritual core of their being, and thereb find God, along with evidence that can satisfy the drive for obtaining knowledge beyond blind faith. Evidence only comes after the inward quest. After letting go of everything others say and all outward opinion and taking a long, sincere, deep look within, comes the knowledge.

What you just described could have easily been said of responsible use psychedelics. In fact, using psychedelics as a tool for accessing all sorts of benefits (especially spiritual) are very popular in bit modern and ancient times.

Looking over the fact that atheists can believe all sorts of things about the personal spiritual experience without interpeting it monotheistically... Could you be missing out on some magic mushrooms? DMT perhaps?

I could direct you to some influential people who are skeptical atheists but would wholeheartedly agree with you on many of your points.

[_Lightworker]

What you just described could have easily been said of responsible use psychedelics. In fact, using psychedelics as a tool for accessing all sorts of benefits (especially spiritual) are very popular in bit modern and ancient times.

Looking over the fact that atheists can believe all sorts of things about the personal spiritual experience without interpeting it monotheistically... Could you missing out because youve some mushrooms? DMT perhaps?

I could direct you to some influential people who are skeptical atheists but would wholeheartedly agree with you on many of your points.

I might be interested in a psychedelic atheist's perspective. I have nothing against entheogens. I have already stated that I don't believe in hallucinations. They are no less valid than dreams and dreams can be prophetic, as well as provide a way for spirits to meet you and communicate with you.

That being said I do believe in demons, or dark spirits. I don't view them as evil per se since they are just doing their job but it there was such a thing as evil they would be it. So, one could open themselves up to demonic influences with a mind expander, so I would advise caution to people who experiment. Just be skeptical of what comes through. Follow your heart, not some random spirit.

I would guess that the difference between an alchemist who is using an entheogen and an atheist would be the alchemist can gain truth and magic from the inward journey whereas the atheist will brush it off as a strange dream or "I was just tripping!". With the alchemist, the inside world and the outside world are intimately connected, they are One.

I won't label any spiritual practice superior or inferior. I have a lot of respect for shamans who use tools to expand consciousness. I also have a lot of respect for other forms of magic and methods such as meditation, or spontaneous kundalini awakening (many of which are labeled psychotic in our society due to misunderstanding).

It seems to me that the most effective spiritual practices are looked at with some kind of disdain by the general public. Entheogens are one that is an easy target, due to our anti drug culture. Natural mystics are generally misunderstood too, especially in dogmatic or atheistic cultures. Saying that "I am God!" or "I am Jesus!" or "I am Buddha!" doesn't get a person much respect in our culture and can end up with involuntary incarceration and medication, even though it is true. It is our culture that is really insane. India doesn't seem to have that problem.

[_Lightworker]

Oh, one more thing about the spiritual nature of drug induced states. I have a friend who has taken a lot of acid, followed the Grateful Dead around for a while. He seems to have experienced what could be termed "God consciousness" or a realization that everything is connected. This is a basic realization. However, he does not look at these things with the reverence that another person I know does. The other person is a peyote medicine man. He does not use recreationally at all, only during healing ceremonies. He is able to channel healing spirits, such as plant and animal helper spirits, to assist in the healing work, whereas the acid tripper might think this is weird.

Both people are taking mind expanders but each has a different way of working with it. Different intentions. This makes all the difference. I have more respect for the one who uses it with sacred reverence, intention set on channeling healing energies, than the party guy. However, even the acid head says it has helped spiritually. To each their own. The acid tripper guy told me a story about someone (Ram Dass, perhaps? I don't recall) who gave acid to their guru. The guru took it and said it didn't really do anything. He was used to this state of consciousness already through yoga meditation. Like I said, to each their own. I like sacred sexuality personally. It is powerful energy that can be channeled up the spine to the crown chakra. Totally natural and not an ascetic practice at all. I'm working on mastering sexual kung fu presently.

[_PrickKicker]

Lightworker are you aware you are on a Mormon discussion board?
Would you like to talk about the Mormon church or are you here to recruit followers?

[_LittleNipper]

Oh, one more thing about the spiritual nature of drug induced states. I have a friend who has taken a lot of acid, followed the Grateful Dead around for a while. He seems to have experienced what could be termed "God consciousness" or a realization that everything is connected. This is a basic realization. However, he does not look at these things with the reverence that another person I know does. The other person is a peyote medicine man. He does not use recreationally at all, only during healing ceremonies. He is able to channel healing spirits, such as plant and animal helper spirits, to assist in the healing work, whereas the acid tripper might think this is weird.

Both people are taking mind expanders but each has a different way of working with it. Different intentions. This makes all the difference. I have more respect for the one who uses it with sacred reverence, intention set on channeling healing energies, than the party guy. However, even the acid head says it has helped spiritually. To each their own. The acid tripper guy told me a story about someone (Ram Dass, perhaps? I don't recall) who gave acid to their guru. The guru took it and said it didn't really do anything. He was used to this state of consciousness already through yoga meditation. Like I said, to each their own. I like sacred sexuality personally. It is powerful energy that can be channeled up the spine to the crown chakra. Totally natural and not an ascetic practice at all. I'm working on mastering sexual kung fu presently.

What you risk is VD, HIV, ruined health and a shallow life.

[_Res Ipsa]

Lightworker,

I am a former Mormon and an atheist. There are gillions of electrons who give their lives every day in arguments over what "atheist" means. It means that I don't believe in any god. No more. No less.

You sound like a very happy person who reached some conclusions about her place in the universe and are very comfortable with those conclusions. I have no desire to dissuade you from them.

But please, don't be sad for me. Be happy for yourself. This is how I understand some of the things you describe. All of the emotions, the feelings, the love, you describe, I feel too. The mysticism, the feeling of connectedness, the emotions you describe seem to be universal. You understand those feelings as coming from someplace outside yourself. I understand these common experiences in this way: we all have brains, and the feelings are simply part of how the brains work.

That explanation is completely satisfactory for me. My life is rich, happy, and fulfilled. I don't need anything outside of myself for that. I feel awed and amazed and completely lucky that I get to have those experiences and those emotions.

So, really, don't spend time feeling sad for me.

[_Lightworker]

Lightworker are you aware you are on a Mormon discussion board?
Would you like to talk about the Mormon church or are you here to recruit followers?

Don't follow me, unless you want your life motto to be "I don't know anything". I have my opinions, and experiences, but as to what they all mean, I am humble enough to admit that I really don't know it all for sure.

My purpose is to

#1 state my opinion and understanding of how reality works, being an ex Mormon.

#2 Challenge my own understanding of reality by debate.

#3 Challenge other people's view of reality via debate.

#4 Focus on atheists in particular because that is a belief I don't understand and makes absolutely no sense to me other than perhaps apathy toward understanding reality. My belief is what Jesus said "he that seeks will find and to him that knocks it shall be opened".

I think this fits perfectly on a Mormon discussion board because I am very knowledgeable about Mormon doctrine and dogma and rather than debate that (or history) I would rather study what happens to people when they loose their faith in Mormonism. Besides, this board seems to be more populated with those that have lost their faith so it seems to be the perfect place to have this conversation.

From Mormonism to atheism? Why? This is an intellectual challenge for me. I was inspired by a debate with my mother a while ago who said "well if the Mormon church isn't true then there is no God". I think this is ridiculous, but it seems to be a very popular way to think among ex Mormons.

I want to be clear with my paradigm to show that I am not a normal human, I have been blessed with spiritual experiences that give me sure knowledge that there is a spiritual reality, and now I am just seeking to understand that reality on a deeper level. Atheism challenges my knowledge.

What I have concluded so far is that atheism is a copout. No offense to atheists, because it could be a sincere belief due to lack of spiritual experiences. However I argue that this lack of experience would not be the case if the person was a sincere seeker of truth.

What the philosophy of atheism fails to address is why there ever was mysticism or religion to begin with. Atheism trashes it as if it was nothing more than immature superstition. I disagree and think mythology and religion stem from real experiences, not superstition. Superstitions come from trying to understand mysticism without being a mystic yourself.

Then we get religion and dogma, again being after effects of a true mystical experience, humans trying to organize it and label it with their very mortal and limited minds, and then act on it, causing chaos and war in many cases, which seems to be a classic argument of atheists: religion causes war. I would say mysticism doesn't, but ego based rules, dogma, superstition, and religion do.