Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

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_Chap
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _Chap »

Tobin is impressing nobody but Tobin with his response, I suspect. And to anybody with a scientific training it is clear that he is just throwing up a smokescreen of superior sounding stuff without knowing what he is talking about. For instance:

Tobin wrote:
DrW wrote:Do you feel we don't have the right values for the constants involved?


It isn't a constant. Again, it is accelerating. Why is that?


So Tobin thinks that DrW's reference to the "constants" in an equation used to derive values for a given quantity implies that DrW thinks that the values derived must be constant.

To illustrate Tobin's mathematical confusion, here is an equation describing a situation involving very elementary kinematics, in which the distance (s) moved by an object under a constant acceleration (a) varies with the time (t) elapsed since the object was at rest:

s = (1/2)*a*t^2

In this equation, (a) is the constant we have to get right if we want to be able to calculate (s) correctly for a given elapsed time (t). But (s) is a variable, even if it was calculated using an equation with a constant in it.

Someone who doesn't get this point has no right to post on questions of cosmological theory as Tobin does.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_DrW
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _DrW »

Tobin,

What is it about the phrase "forbidden by the laws of physics" that you don't understand? It is not a matter of "figuring out" how to use entanglement for FTL communication. The fundamental laws of physics, as they apply to both relativity and quantum mechanics, simply don't allow it. It can't be done in this universe, no matter how smart you are.

So, now that we know what you mean by the phrase "space time is not constrained", the question is, why do you think that helps your case when it comes to superluminal communication?

It appears that you are confusing the net effect of the expansion of space time (over large distances) with the speed of light (local propagation of energy) within space time.

But go ahead and try to defend your assertion, anyway.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_DrW
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _DrW »

Chap wrote:
So Tobin thinks that DrW's reference to the "constants" in an equation used to derive values for a given quantity implies that DrW thinks that the values derived must be constant.

To illustrate Tobin's mathematical confusion, here is an equation describing a situation involving very elementary kinematics, in which the distance (s) moved by an object under a constant acceleration (a) varies with the time (t) elapsed since the object was at rest:

s = (1/2)*a*t^2

In this equation, (a) is the constant we have to get right if we want to be able to calculate (s) correctly for a given elapsed time (t). But (s) is a variable, even if it was calculated using an equation with a constant in it.

Someone who doesn't get this point has no right to post on questions of cosmological theory as Tobin does.


I agree.

But he just keeps at it.

Actually, the constants I was referring to are even simpler than the one in your example. I was referring to the values for constants that one can look up in the front (or back) of pretty much any physics text book - no pesky calculations required.

Values of the constants such as c (speed of light in a vacuum) , G (gravitational constant), ℏ (Planck's constant) and many more are of fundamental importance in terms of how the universe works.

If Tobin had thought about it, he might have realized that his question about the "equation that governs the expansion of space time" may turn out to simply be a property of the Universe like "c". This "expansion metric" only applies, as I indicated above, at large (pretty much intergalactic) distances.

In any case, my question was simply whether Tobin thought that the values measured or derived for these constants were wrong.

Apparently Tobin doesn't have a problem with the values for these constants (although I agree with Chap that he might not know what he is talking about in the first place), which makes his belief in man's ability to violate the laws of nature, almost at will, quite disturbing.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_DrW
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _DrW »

Tobin,

I think that you are a sincere guy who has thought a lot about the conflict between religion and science, and has come to some (unconventional) conclusions in the matter that you are comfortable with.

That's good. And I usually enjoy reading your posts because of that.

But you really are in way over your head here. As Chap and I and others have indicated, you are not doing yourself any favors in terms of your credibility.

So rather than continue to point out where you are wrong, I am going to refrain from responding to your posts until I can respond positively.

So if I stop responding to your posts, please do not assume it is because I agree. Just the opposite is the case. I will respond when (and if) I see something from you that I do agree with and leave it to others to point out where you are wrong, if they should care to do so.

You are so wrong that it is taking a lot of time to explain why, and I am pretty sure that the many (probably most) of those reading this thread are perfectly capable of pointing this out to you.

I have (mostly) enjoyed the discussion thus far, but am going to quit before it becomes a real chore.

Have a good evening (or morning) depending on where you are located. It's evening for me and I'm headed out for sushi.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Chap
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _Chap »

DrW wrote:Tobin,

I think that you are a sincere guy who has thought a lot about the conflict between religion and science, and has come to some (unconventional) conclusions in the matter that you are comfortable with.

That's good. And I usually enjoy reading your posts because of that.

But you really are in way over your head here. As Chap and I and others have indicated, you are not doing yourself any favors in terms of your credibility.

So rather than continue to point out where you are wrong, I am going to refrain from responding to your posts until I can respond positively.

So if I stop responding to your posts, please do not assume it is because I agree. Just the opposite is the case. I will respond when (and if) I see something from you that I do agree with and leave it to others to point out where you are wrong, if they should care to do so.

You are so wrong that it is taking a lot of time to explain why, and I am pretty sure that the many (probably most) of those reading this thread are perfectly capable of pointing this out to you.

I have (mostly) enjoyed the discussion thus far, but am going to quit before it becomes a real chore.

Have a good evening (or morning) depending on where you are located. It's evening for me and I'm headed out for sushi.


I knew Tobin would succeed in wearing out the good DrW's patience in the end. It was only a question of time.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Tobin
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _Tobin »

DrW wrote:Tobin,

What is it about the phrase "forbidden by the laws of physics" that you don't understand? It is not a matter of "figuring out" how to use entanglement for FTL communication. The fundamental laws of physics, as they apply to both relativity and quantum mechanics, simply don't allow it. It can't be done in this universe, no matter how smart you are.

So, now that we know what you mean by the phrase "space time is not constrained", the question is, why do you think that helps your case when it comes to superluminal communication?

It appears that you are confusing the net effect of the expansion of space time (over large distances) with the speed of light (local propagation of energy) within space time.

But go ahead and try to defend your assertion, anyway.


You haven't explained what laws of physics are being violated. As has been noted, the quantum state of particles (position, momentum, spin, polarization, etc) once they become entangled, can remain "entangled" over any distance. Whether this can or ultimately cannot be used as a means of communication I don't believe has been determined and is the subject of further research as to how changing these properties and maintaining a stable state can be utilized as a resource for communication and computation. Your insistence that there is some fundamental law of physics that precludes this is, as far as I know, is completely idiotic.

The rest of your statements fit a similar model. It isn't a denial of what I stated, merely a statement that I need to defend my assertions. In other words, you bascially admit what I said was true. The fact is, there are likely parts of the universe, ie star, planets, and galaxies moving relative to us FASTER than the speed of light. In other words, space-time is not contrained by the speed of light. Any fundamental understanding of the big bang would lead anyone to this conclusion and you seem to acknowledge it now as well.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Tobin
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _Tobin »

DrW wrote:Tobin,

I think that you are a sincere guy who has thought a lot about the conflict between religion and science, and has come to some (unconventional) conclusions in the matter that you are comfortable with.

That's good. And I usually enjoy reading your posts because of that.

But you really are in way over your head here. As Chap and I and others have indicated, you are not doing yourself any favors in terms of your credibility.

So rather than continue to point out where you are wrong, I am going to refrain from responding to your posts until I can respond positively.

So if I stop responding to your posts, please do not assume it is because I agree. Just the opposite is the case. I will respond when (and if) I see something from you that I do agree with and leave it to others to point out where you are wrong, if they should care to do so.

You are so wrong that it is taking a lot of time to explain why, and I am pretty sure that the many (probably most) of those reading this thread are perfectly capable of pointing this out to you.

I have (mostly) enjoyed the discussion thus far, but am going to quit before it becomes a real chore.

Have a good evening (or morning) depending on where you are located. It's evening for me and I'm headed out for sushi.


Well, have fun DrW. I don't think stating someone is wrong and then being completely unable to explain how their assertions are wrong or explain what fundamental principle of physic precludes something is very persuasive. If what I've stated is so apparently incorrect, it is rather funny that you are incapable of quickly and succinctly explaining how and why I'm mistaken. Actually, I'm not even sure what I'm wrong about here even. Do you believe the assertion that there are parts of the universe expanding away from us faster than the speed of light for example is correct? Do you believe in the big bang and the statements about the expansion (and speed of the expansion) or do you believe that is wrong and since it violates some mysterious fundamental law you have yet to explain to us? I just find your dismissals completely shallow. You pretend to have some superior understanding of science and physics to myself, yet are unable to explain how I'm wrong at all.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Chap
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _Chap »

Tobin takes DrW's refusal to waste further time trying to educate him as a confession that Tobin is right.

It will do nobody but Tobin any harm if he is left to enjoy his feeling of superiority.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_lulu
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _lulu »

Tobin wrote:Do you believe the assertion that there are parts of the universe expanding away from us faster than the speed of light for example is correct?


Depends on how you define universe and "from us." Yes, space is expanding faster than the speed of light. But so what. Nothing within that space can travel faster than the speed of light. In other words, the speed of expanding space and the speed of light are incomparables, mixing apples and oranges.

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Last edited by Guest on Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.
_Chap
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Re: Young Earth Creationism in the LDS Church

Post by _Chap »

lulu wrote:
Tobin wrote:Do you believe the assertion that there are parts of the universe expanding away from us faster than the speed of light for example is correct?


Depends on how you define universe. Yes, space is expanding faster than the speed of light but expanding space and the speed of light are incomparables, mixing apples and oranges.


A discussion with Tobin about cosmology is like a discussion with Droopy about US politics. It's just feeding a troll.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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