For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

[_RockSlider]

4- Even with the thirty-something plural wives he married, no offspring have been identified, possibly excepting Sylvia Sessions' daughter.

And in the search for this, we have the further benefit of discovering that William Schryver is Nibley's son!

[_why me]

Since I am eager to know what kind of arguments can be made in favor of Pahoran's position that only nascent perverts could imagine that Joseph Smith might have had sex with Helen Mar Kimball, a girl to whom he was married, I have broken my rule and read whyme's three posts.

To sum them up, the points he makes amount to:

1. On the possibility of condom use, he asks where the women might have bought them. He also asks who might have performed any abortions that may have taken place.

RESPONSE: condoms in pre-modern times were not disposable. A man typically owned one condom, cleaned it after use, and re-used it. Women were not expected to go out and buy them. If Smith used a condom, the need for abortions would have been greatly diminished.

2. He notes that no women seem to have complimented Joseph on his sexual prowess.

RESPONSE: The point is not whether Joseph Smith was a satisfactory sexual partner for all the women he married, just that he had sex with them. Several of his wives swore affidavits to that effect, which the CoJCoLDS submitted as evidence in the Temple Lot Case.

3. He notes that at least one LDS site does mention polygamy.

RESPONSE: It would be pretty odd if the topic was never ever mentioned. But it is significant that the church has no reluctance about publicly circulating material that clearly implies to the uninitiated that Joseph Smith had only one wife - see the example I give. And some LDS who do admit to the plural marriages do seem anxious to deny that sexual relationships were part of those marriages in Smith's case - and only in Smith's case amongst all Mormon polygamists. It is the latter point that I find particularly puzzling, but I think I can see why this is done: see above.

Well, let me put it this way and I am not Pahoran. First, I cannot say that many women would have been happy using a condom that has been inside other women, regardless if it is cleaned. And of course, such a condom would need to be hidden from Emma. And we have no proof that any condom was in use. No woman claimed that a condom was used.

Also, it needs to be noted that many women would know if a guy is in it for the lust. And certainly upon the death of Joseph, one or two may have come out with such a claim if Joseph were a horny dog. But...no woman did. Finally, polygamy is mentioned. It is also mentioned in the institute manual. Not to mention the JSP as I understand it. And technically, Joseph legally had one wife because polygamy was against the law which is one reason why Fanny did not need a divorce from Joseph and could be still be sealed to him and married to Solomon.

[_lulu]

You don't honestly believe an 18th century horn dog would be able to have so much sex without leaving a trail of children do you? Your only answer so far has been and will be speculation and innuendo.

Did you mean 19th?

Abortion was available.

Withdrawal was available.

Pessaries of various materials were available.

By 1838 rubber diaphrams were available.

By 1838 condoms made from rubber (who'd have thought) were available.

Maybe...but then where would the women buy them? At the LDS general store? And who would do the abortion? Brother James MD? We need to do a reality check.

Why yes indeed, why me, where would a woman buy the withdrawal method? I think you've got me there.

[_Madison54]

And who would do the abortion? Brother James MD? We need to do a reality check.

Even Hyrum stated that abortions were being performed in Nauvoo:

Joseph Smith's once closest friend and associate Doctor Bennett was also accused by Hyrum Smith of practicing abortions.

Hyrum testified that Dr. Bennett was propositioning women in a similar fashion to Joseph Smith.

"[Dr. Bennett] endeavored to seduce them, and accomplished his designs by saying it was right; that it was one of the mysteries of God, which was to be revealed when the people was strong enough in faith to bear such mysteries that it was perfectly right to have illicit intercourse with females, providing no one knew it but themselves, vehemently trying them from day to day, to yield to his passions, bringing witnesses of his own clan to testify that there were such revelations and such commandments, and that they were of God; also stating that he would be responsible for their sins, if there were any, and that he would give them medicine to produce abortions, provided they should become pregnant." - Affidavit of Hyrum Smith. Official History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.71

Here are the other statements referring to abortions in Nauvoo:

THE LAW INTERVIEW:

Question:

"Did you ever hear of abortion being practiced in Nauvoo?"

William Law's answer:

"Yes. There was some talk about Joseph getting no issue from all the women he had intercourse with. Dr. Foster spoke to me about the fact. But I don't remember what was told about abortion. If I heard things of the kind, I didn't believe in them at that time. Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this."

Mrs. [Sarah Pratt]: "You hear often that Joseph had no polygamous offspring. The reason of this is very simple. Abortion was practiced on a large scale in Nauvoo. Dr. John C. Bennett, the evil genius of Joseph, brought this abomination into a scientific system. He showed to my husband and me the instruments with which he used to operate for Joseph.' There was a house in Nauvoo, 'right across the flat,' about a mile and a-half from the town, a kind of hospital. They sent the women there, when they showed signs of celestial consequences. Abortion was practiced regularly in this house."

Mrs. H.: "Many little bodies of new-born children floated down the Mississippi..."

Wilhelm R. von Wymetal's 1886
Mormon Portraits I p. 59

Apostle Orson Pratt's wife testified...

"One day they came both, Joseph and [Doctor] Bennett, on horseback to my house. Bennett dismounted, Joseph remained outside. Bennett wanted me to return to him a book I had borrowed from him. It was a so-called doctor-book. I had a rapidly growing little family and wanted to inform myself about certain matters in regard to babies, etc., -- this explains my borrowing that book."

"While giving Bennett his book, I observed that he held something in the left sleeve of his coat. Bennett smiled and said: 'Oh, a little job for Joseph; one of his women is in trouble.' Saying this. he took the thing out of his left sleeve. It was a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end."

"I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed; that the woman was very sick, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered." - Testimony of Apostle Orson Pratt's wife, Sarah Pratt from "Joseph Smith the Prophet: His Family and Friends"

I'm not saying these abortions happened, but there were definitely those who believed they did.

[_sock puppet]

And why exactly is Joseph Smith held to a higher standard than the other early prophets and church brothers who practiced polygamy and had sex with their polygamous wives? Did Joseph practice a different type of polygamy than they did?

My Great-Great-Grandfather was an early church leader who lived polygamy. His last wife was only 15 years old when he married her and had sex with her. That's ok and readily accepted? But not ok for Joseph? I don't understand the double standard.

Modern Mormons deny it because JSJr denied it too, as late as 5/26/1844 aboard the Maid of Iowa. JSJr never admitted of his extra "wives". He kept it hidden, best he could, from his one and only wife, Emma Smith. The others came out publicly about their polygamy, their wives knew, etc.

It was JSJr who kept it all 'cloak and dagger', lying about it when denying it, and even having the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed because it was publishing the truth about JSJr having these extra "wives".

If Mormons admit that JSJr had sex with these other women, they realize that makes JSJr a liar. It makes his ordering the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor an abuse of his mayoral powers, in an effort to keep his 'dirty little' secret.

JSJr did not have the courage to do polygamy openly. So his hidden trysts bear the badges of adultery, plain and simple.

[_sock puppet]

We need to do a reality check.

You most certainly do need to. Your entire posting history shows you have been in la-la land.

[_Chap]

Well, let me put it this way and I am not Pahoran. First, I cannot say that many women would have been happy using a condom that has been inside other women, regardless if it is cleaned. And of course, such a condom would need to be hidden from Emma. And we have no proof that any condom was in use. No woman claimed that a condom was used.

Also, it needs to be noted that many women would know if a guy is in it for the lust. And certainly upon the death of Joseph, one or two may have come out with such a claim if Joseph were a horny dog. But...no woman did. Finally, polygamy is mentioned. It is also mentioned in the institute manual. Not to mention the JSP as I understand it. And technically, Joseph legally had one wife because polygamy was against the law which is one reason why Fanny did not need a divorce from Joseph and could be still be sealed to him and married to Solomon.

The topic of this thread is "Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?"

Whyme's first paragraph seems to be an attempt to deal with the point that, given the known availability of contraceptive techniques, the lack of a known pregnancy does not rule out Smith's having sex with this woman. To make that point, we don't need to prove the use of a condom in any particular case. We only need to show that it was possible, which it certainly was. His suggestion that Smith would have needed to have in effect a set of condoms with the name of each plural wife inscribed on them is simply silly.

As for his second paragraph: the point is not whether Smith took plural wives simply and solely to fulfill his sex drive. The point is whether, given that he indisputably took those plural wives (and the CoJCoLDS acknowledges that he did, although it hardly puts it on the front page of JS-related material), it makes any sense not to assume that he will have had sex with those wives at least from time to time. Why shouldn't he?

I think I am done with whyme. But at least he gave it a try, unlike Pahoran who turned tail and fled.

[Guest]

...

Modern Mormons deny it because JSJr denied it too, as late as 5/26/1844 aboard the Maid of Iowa. JSJr never admitted of his extra "wives". He kept it hidden, best he could, from his one and only wife, Emma Smith. The others came out publicly about their polygamy, their wives knew, etc.

It was JSJr who kept it all 'cloak and dagger', lying about it when denying it, and even having the Nauvoo Expositor destroyed because it was publishing the truth about JSJr having these extra "wives".

If Mormons admit that JSJr had sex with these other women, they realize that makes JSJr a liar. It makes his ordering the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor an abuse of his mayoral powers, in an effort to keep his 'dirty little' secret.

JSJr did not have the courage to do polygamy openly. So his hidden trysts bear the badges of adultery, plain and simple.

Yup. And that is why we have to have all the ridiculous denials that a man who was re-establishing the Old Testament institution of polygamy by divine command might have had sex with his wives.

Why are modern Mormons so squeamish about this? In the Temple Lot case in the 1890s, the CoJCoLDS had no problem in getting surviving plural wives of Joseph Smith to sign affidavits saying that they had sex with him. Why go into denial now?

(Edited to clean up typos)

[_Madison54]

And why exactly is Joseph Smith held to a higher standard than the other early prophets and church brothers who practiced polygamy and had sex with their polygamous wives? Did Joseph practice a different type of polygamy than they did?

My Great-Great-Grandfather was an early church leader who lived polygamy. His last wife was only 15 years old when he married her and had sex with her. That's ok and readily accepted? But not ok for Joseph? I don't understand the double standard.

Modern Mormons deny it because JSJr denied it too, as late as 5/26/1844 aboard the Maid of Iowa. JSJr never admitted of his extra "wives". He kept it hidden, best he could, from his one and only wife, Emma Smith.

I agree.

So rather than admit that Joseph Smith lied, many members believe that he only lived a spiritual, eternal sort of celestial, non-sexual marriage with other women. That leaves them with having to believe that none of the other men and prophets who lived polygamy followed or obeyed Joseph Smith by living polygamy in the manner he taught and lived it.

[_Madison54]

We need to do a reality check.

You most certainly do need to. Your entire posting history shows you have been in la-la land.

why me's posts actually show a complete lack of knowledge regarding the true history of the church. I'm surprised he doesn't do more studying and researching before he attempts to post or debate on here.