For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

[_Chap]

We need to do a reality check.

You most certainly do need to. Your entire posting history shows you have been in la-la land.

why me's posts actually show a complete lack of knowledge regarding the true history of the church. I'm surprised he doesn't do more studying and researching before he attempts to post or debate on here.

I think the problem is that he is convinced that in a tight place all he has to do is close his eyes, put his fingers in his ears, and say "Mormonism has not yet been proved to be false". More than that, he does not need to know. Which is why he is pretty well unsquashable, whatever the weight of evidence that is dropped on his head.

Of course, if he actually did "do more studying and researching before he attempts to post or debate on here", the whole structure might collapse round his ears. So he doesn't.

[_Sethbag]

Is there any other reason to suppose that he would not have had sex with this particular woman he was married to?

Apparently, where Joseph Smith is concerned, Pahoran has adopted the typical Internet-age attitude of "pics or it didn't happen".

The members who are uncomfortable with the idea of Joseph Smith having sex with Helen Mar Kimball and the others apparently realize that the whole situation looks as illegitimate as it's possible to be, and want to help get Joseph Smith's reputation out of a jam. They know Joseph was wrong, and so seek to minimize the wrongness by taking the most egregious wrong, that sin second in seriousness only to murder, out of it.

Joseph Smith was an adulterer. He almost certainly committed adultery with dozens of women. He could have put Bill Clinton to shame. Monica Lewinksi was left with the stained dress, but Joseph Smith's "interns" ended up married to him in sham ceremonies in secret, giving up their virtue to him, and in the end were kicked out of the house when his real wife disapproved.

Praise to the man who committed adultery. Jesus anointed that cuckold and cheat. Blessed to open the legs of dozens of his followers, kings shall ignore him, and sycophants and apologists make excuses and justify evil.

[_SteelHead]

In the light of multiple sworn testimonies that he had relations from the sundry wives themselves, and in the face of the lack of progeny.....

I again reiterate my MAO theory: being that Joseph new enough about the birds and the bees to know how to avoid unwanted pregnancies without contraceptives - namely; manual, anal, and oral.

This theory solves this paltry conundrum nicely.

[_sock puppet]

Praise to the man who committed adultery. Jesus anointed that cuckold and cheat. Blessed to open the legs of dozens of his followers, kings shall ignore him, and sycophants and apologists make excuses and justify evil.

I think that sums it up rather nicely.

[_Chap]

Is there any other reason to suppose that he would not have had sex with this particular woman he was married to?

Apparently, where Joseph Smith is concerned, Pahoran has adopted the typical Internet-age attitude of "pics or it didn't happen".

For most rational people, the Temple Lot Affidavits and related testimony should be sufficient:

- Faithful Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed." (Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)

- In a court affidavit, faithful Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman. (Temple Lot Case, 427)

- Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)

In total, 13 faithful latter-day saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him.

- Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.
William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)

- Smith's secretary William Clayton also recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: "Prest. Joseph and I went to B[enjamin] F. Johnsons to sleep." Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith: "I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F." (Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)

- Faithful Mormon and Stake President Angus Cannon told Joseph Smith's son: "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked [Eliza R. Snow] the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that."" (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.)

Wow! Joseph Smith had sex with his wives! Now who would have thought it possible?

And since Helen Mar Kimball was also his wife, why not with her too?

[Guest]

And who would do the abortion? Brother James MD? We need to do a reality check.

Even Hyrum stated that abortions were being performed in Nauvoo:

Joseph Smith's once closest friend and associate Doctor Bennett was also accused by Hyrum Smith of practicing abortions.

Hyrum testified that Dr. Bennett was propositioning women in a similar fashion to Joseph Smith.

"[Dr. Bennett] endeavored to seduce them, and accomplished his designs by saying it was right; that it was one of the mysteries of God, which was to be revealed when the people was strong enough in faith to bear such mysteries that it was perfectly right to have illicit intercourse with females, providing no one knew it but themselves, vehemently trying them from day to day, to yield to his passions, bringing witnesses of his own clan to testify that there were such revelations and such commandments, and that they were of God; also stating that he would be responsible for their sins, if there were any, and that he would give them medicine to produce abortions, provided they should become pregnant." - Affidavit of Hyrum Smith. Official History of the Church, Vol. 5, p.71

Here are the other statements referring to abortions in Nauvoo:

THE LAW INTERVIEW:

Question:

"Did you ever hear of abortion being practiced in Nauvoo?"

William Law's answer:

"Yes. There was some talk about Joseph getting no issue from all the women he had intercourse with. Dr. Foster spoke to me about the fact. But I don't remember what was told about abortion. If I heard things of the kind, I didn't believe in them at that time. Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this."

Mrs. [Sarah Pratt]: "You hear often that Joseph had no polygamous offspring. The reason of this is very simple. Abortion was practiced on a large scale in Nauvoo. Dr. John C. Bennett, the evil genius of Joseph, brought this abomination into a scientific system. He showed to my husband and me the instruments with which he used to operate for Joseph.' There was a house in Nauvoo, 'right across the flat,' about a mile and a-half from the town, a kind of hospital. They sent the women there, when they showed signs of celestial consequences. Abortion was practiced regularly in this house."

Mrs. H.: "Many little bodies of new-born children floated down the Mississippi..."

Wilhelm R. von Wymetal's 1886
Mormon Portraits I p. 59

Apostle Orson Pratt's wife testified...

"One day they came both, Joseph and [Doctor] Bennett, on horseback to my house. Bennett dismounted, Joseph remained outside. Bennett wanted me to return to him a book I had borrowed from him. It was a so-called doctor-book. I had a rapidly growing little family and wanted to inform myself about certain matters in regard to babies, etc., -- this explains my borrowing that book."

"While giving Bennett his book, I observed that he held something in the left sleeve of his coat. Bennett smiled and said: 'Oh, a little job for Joseph; one of his women is in trouble.' Saying this. he took the thing out of his left sleeve. It was a pretty long instrument of a kind I had never seen before. It seemed to be of steel and was crooked at one end."

"I heard afterwards that the operation had been performed; that the woman was very sick, and that Joseph was very much afraid that she might die, but she recovered." - Testimony of Apostle Orson Pratt's wife, Sarah Pratt from "Joseph Smith the Prophet: His Family and Friends"

I'm not saying these abortions happened, but there were definitely those who believed they did.

Whyme and bcspace know this information. It has been brought up countless times. I know with bcspace he is just trolling. Not sure if whyme is just ignoring everything anyone says to remain ignorant or not. I know some members don't want to know something if it does not support what they want to believe. I noticed as soon as people gave whyme information he changed gears and came up with BS like women would not use a condom or that anyone would do an abortion for Joseph. He could be a classic case of ignoring what people say to maintain certain beliefs.

I also don't like the horndog term. I think it is to subjective and used by some on both sides to dishonestly try and defend their POV. Whyme, do you think Joseph had sex with some of his wives. Yes or No.

[_Themis]

In the light of multiple sworn testimonies that he had relations from the sundry wives themselves, and in the face of the lack of progeny.....

I again reiterate my MAO theory: being that Joseph new enough about the birds and the bees to know how to avoid unwanted pregnancies without contraceptives - namely; manual, anal, and oral.

This theory solves this paltry conundrum nicely.

I think he may have used some of these methods, but since we have a number of sources saying abortions were being performed, it answers the question of why Joseph did have many children with these wives.

[_Themis]

Wow! Joseph Smith had sex with his wives! Now who would have thought it possible?

And since Helen Mar Kimball was also his wife, why not with her too?

Helen is used as a distraction. We certainly don't have evidence of any sexual relationship, but who cares. Joseph had sex with many of his other wives, and unless he made some agreement with Helen or Heber to wait, could have had sex with Helen at any time. Bottom line is Joseph was having sex with his wives, and some of them were very young.

[_Chap]

Before he took to his heels, Pahoran informed us:

I was right from the get-go: you are not interested in discussing this matter in good faith, and you were faking it when you pretended that you were.

As you perfectly well know, my claim has not been "dismembered." It hasn't even been addressed.

If you and your idle buddies want to make up your little minds having seen only one side of the argument, and pretend that it represents all the evidence there is, then it is apparent that no amount of evidence or argumentation would make an impact anyway.

Regards,
Pahoran

Since Pahoran won't tell us, please could everybody try really hard to work out what "evidence or argumentation" not already covered in this thread Pahoran might have adduced in support of his claim that the only reason for concluding that Joseph Smith probably had sex with his wife Helen Mar Kimball would be because one is a nascent pedophile projecting one's fantasies onto Joseph Smith?

I do think we should try to be fair.

Suggestions?

[_Chap]

Wow! Joseph Smith had sex with his wives! Now who would have thought it possible?

And since Helen Mar Kimball was also his wife, why not with her too?

Helen is used as a distraction. We certainly don't have evidence of any sexual relationship, but who cares. Joseph had sex with many of his other wives, and unless he made some agreement with Helen or Heber to wait, could have had sex with Helen at any time. Bottom line is Joseph was having sex with his wives, and some of them were very young.

I actually disagree with the underlined clause.

If a woman tells me that she is going to become the wife of Mr X, then that is prima facie evidence that she will be commencing a sexual relationship with him. Helen Mar Kimball was of an age such that marriage was quite possible in the society in which she lived. There is therefore no reason not to make the normal presumption that by becoming his wife, which she did, she did commence a sexual relationship.

To overturn that presumption we need positive evidence to the contrary.