For Pahoran: Did Smith have sex with Helen Mar Kimball?

[_beastie]

I have always doubted that this was a sexual relationship. I think Joseph Smith intended it to become a sexual relationship, but was killed before that could happen. Polygamists today "hoard" very young women in a similar way. They "marry" them, but the marriage is nonsexual until the girl is old enough (which, of course, varies by community). His other wives, while young, do seem to have been sexually mature, so I've never thought the "pedophile" label was appropriate. "Sexual predator", yes.

I agree that Helen probably would not have, eight months into a sexual marriage, been seemingly surprised by her social restrictions.

Having said that, I would not be surprised if it had been a sexual relationship, either. I think Joseph Smith reserved nonsexual relationships for older women.

I think the best way to understand Joseph Smith's relationships with his "wives" is to look at how those closest to him practiced polygamy. Does anyone doubt that Brigham's marriages included sex, with the exception of his older wives? Then why doubt that Joseph Smith's included sex?

For those believers who think they're scoring some point, or winning something somehow, but claiming these relationships were nonsexual, do you not view them as real marriages? If they were real marriages, wouldn't it be ok, in the eyes of God, for it to be sexual? What do you think you're saving Joseph Smith from?

[_Tobin]

beastie,

I really don't care which is which all that much. However, I don't buy that every marriage was sexual and I don't buy that every marriage was dynastic. There are people here that support both extremes and I view those radical positions as being strictly false. I tend to view the polygamist marriages with young single women as sexual in nature. That would be consistent with the idea of having children and raising them up in righteousness unto the Lord. I also view the other marriages as purely dynastic. I also feel the principles and concepts here were messed up and Joseph Smith's understanding was not correct. If such things are commanded of God, then God needs to appear to each person involved and command them to do so. Simply having Joseph Smith have a revelation that someone should marry him is not in keeping with this commandment (and is sinful in my opinion as per the Book of Mormon).

[_Equality]

I have always doubted that this was a sexual relationship. I think Joseph Smith intended it to become a sexual relationship, but was killed before that could happen. Polygamists today "hoard" very young women in a similar way. They "marry" them, but the marriage is nonsexual until the girl is old enough (which, of course, varies by community).

If I were an apologist, this is the argument I would make: he intended to have sex with her when she reached an appropriate age, but he never did because he got killed by evil anti-Mormons inspired by Satan to destroy the pure and holy Joseph (pbuh). It is, actually, the argument that is advanced by Muslim apologists with respect to one of Muhammad's plural wives, whom he married when she was six years old but with whom he waited to have sexual relations until she was an appropriate age--nine. She became his favorite wife. Isn't that special?

[_dblagent007]

I agree with you Beastie.

One thing I dislike is when TBMs argue that a marriage is "dynastic" as if that means no sex was involved. Everything I have read leads me to believe that once Joseph was married, regardless whether he got married for dynastic reasons or because he just thought she was hot, he was fully married. This means he could have a full sexual relationship with his wife if he wanted to. Obviously he was more attracted to and had better access to the hot teeny boppers living in his house so they are the ones who he had sex with the most.

[_dblagent007]

It is, actually, the argument that is advanced by Muslim apologists with respect to one of Muhammad's plural wives, whom he married when she was six years old but with whom he waited to have sexual relations until she was an appropriate age--nine. She became his favorite wife. Isn't that special?

What is the deal with religious visionaries and sexual relations with young girls? Why can't God find prophets who don't need to have sex with teenage girls? When God asked for volunteers to be prophets in the preexistence, did he have to sweeten the deal by promising lots of sex with teenage girls to get them to agree? Or was the sex a perk that was always part of the plan, but only his "prophets" were righteous enough to get such a reward? Whoever this God guy is, I don't want anything to do with him or his oversexed prophets.

[_Phaedrus Ut]

With what evidence we have it's near impossible to know whether or not Joseph and Helen had sex. What we do know is that Joseph gained sexual access to Helen through of the marriage. The same as he gained and used in his other plural marriages.


Phaedrus

[_Darth J]

Here's a thought: if you were harboring pedophile fantasies, why would you be arguing that it was wrong for Joseph Smith to take a 14 year-old girl into his binder of women?

[_ludwigm]

I mean, why shouldn't a man have sex with his wife?

Why should he?

.

Kohn comes home and finds his best friend, Gruen in the bed with his wife.
Kohn:
- Please explain me...
Gruen:
- Er .. um .. kh kh
Kohn:
- ... what is your reason! I am her husband, for me it is an execution of duty. But you? Why should you do this thing?

[_MsJack]

I said on the other thread that I literally laughed out loud when I read Pahoran's response to my inquiry, and I meant it. To insist that one has to be harboring nascent pedophilia in order to believe that a married man may have had sex with his wife... can I really say it any better than "LOL"?

I've never been much for outrage over the ages of Joseph Smith's young brides, and I'm agnostic on whether or not Smith's marriage to Helen was ever consummated. Quinn thinks it was consummated, Hales thinks that it wasn't and was for "eternity only," Compton thinks it was not consummated but maintains that the marriage was for time and eternity (so it would have been consummated eventually?). Those are all intelligent and reasonable LDS scholars who have come to their conclusions through careful sifting of the primary sources. My own feelings are that they have come to such different conclusions because the evidence is highly ambiguous, so there is no need to demonize any of those positions as irresponsible or unreasonably biased.

[_lulu]

I said on the other thread that I literally laughed out loud when I read Pahoran's response to my inquiry, and I meant it. To insist that one has to be harboring nascent pedophilia in order to believe that a married man may have had sex with his wife... can I really say it any better than "LOL"?

I've never been much for outrage over the ages of Joseph Smith's young brides, and I'm agnostic on whether or not Smith's marriage to Helen was ever consummated. Quinn thinks it was consummated, Hales thinks that it wasn't and was for "eternity only," Compton thinks it was not consummated but maintains that the marriage was for time and eternity (so it would have been consummated eventually?). Those are all intelligent and reasonable LDS scholars who have come to their conclusions through careful sifting of the primary sources. My own feelings are that they have come to such different conclusions because the evidence is highly ambiguous, so there is no need to demonize any of those positions as irresponsible or unreasonably biased.

That's a nice summation on a thread that could use a nice summation.

I still think it was more likely than not and that those who take the absolutely not position have a very heavy burden which they have not met.