How to Throw a Wrench into High Priest Group

[_consiglieri]

The life of Joseph Smith appears to teach as much.

[_RockSlider]

Consig's question goes to the heart of the central fallacy of Christianity: why is Jesus needed at all? Assuming the eternal existence of the soul, why couldn't each sinner suffer for his/her own sins until justice be satisfied? If the heavenly laws of justice require some form of punishment for earthly misdeeds, then why can't that punishment be exacted individually for each person? If the white lie I told my mom when I was young requires a sentence of 20 minutes in the fiery depths of hell, then why can't I just pay for it myself? Our own justice systems have sentencing guidelines designed to be commensurate with the gravity of the crime; why can't God have one, too? Surely God, who is omniscient and knows perfectly the exact culpability of each person in any given sin, is in a great position to quantify the amount of punishment required for the misdeeds of any sinner. Any conception of God, or the afterlife, that contemplates an infinite punishment (in any degree whatsoever) for wrongs committed during a finite, mortal existence, cannot be based on justice.

And I think this goes to the heart of why, in the final analysis, Mormon theology ultimately teaches a universality of salvation and exaltation.

Hey, the doctrines already there to support Spektical's and consig's observations.

If one obtains the promise of exaltation in this lifetime, then they indeed have to pay their own price in hell, before ascending to their exaltation.

[_Markk]

It seems obvious to me that unless the whole point of the atonement is to allow us to avoid the consequences of our actions, then "Christ has died in vain," (a quote I threw in there during the ensuing discussion).

How is it possible that a self-proclaimed Christian church cannot see so elementary a fact?

This is not the whole point of the Atonement. Once you acquire at least a rudimentary, working grasp of LDS doctrine here, and the philosophical depth to analyze its elements in a serious manner, perhaps we can have a productive discussion.

Suffice it to say that the fundamental purpose of the Atonement is not to "allow us to avoid the consequences of our actions," but to redeem us and cleanse us from our sins, through the grace of Christ, such that we may return to the presence of our Father in Heaven. Acceptance of the Atonement is an action, for which their are consequences. Non-acceptance of the Atonement, and a life lived in wickedness, also has consequences. In both cases, there is no avoidance of the consequences. The Atonement, it is true, in an ultimate sense, waives the requirements and claim of justice upon us at the judgement seat of Christ, but that final state of purity through the Atonement does not obviate the consequences of our conduct in mortality. We are still subject to the consequences of our behavior here, and the dynamics and side-effects our choices set in motion, even after having accepted the Atonement and its blessings.

The Atonement then, when freely chosen, is not so much an avoidance of consequences, in an eternal sense, as the choosing of an alternative set of consequences. Indeed, one might say that the Atonement doesn't so much allow us avoidance of the consequences of our sins as it places us in a state in which there are no longer any consequences to avoid. This is part of what is meant when the scriptures say that, although our sins may be red as scarlet, through the Atonement, we become white as wool. It is a total and ultimate purging and purification. Our past sins are no longer imputed to us - they have been utterly erased, not "avoided" per se (as though those consequences still exist somewhere and we swerved to avoid them once having been forgiven and sanctified through the power of the Atonement). The consequences no longer exist at all. The debt incurred with respect to eternal law and justice was paid by Jesus Christ for all those who accept that atoning sacrifice. That is a consequence of our actions, as well as any we would incur upon dying in our sins having not exercised faith in Christ, obeyed his commandments, and accepted the Atonement.

Christ died that we may become exalted beings like he himself is and "inherit all things." The fundamental crux of this isn't avoidance of the consequences of sin but purification from sin.

In a gospel sense, just having avoided the Second Death itself would, while a relief, be hardly even a baby step toward that which is contemplated by the concept "exaltation."

LDS theology teaches that one can neither accept or deny the atonement, believing does not matter, nor does full denial of gods existence. The atonement is given to every person born in this world, less arguablly the SOP, and they get it whether they want it or not. This is general or unconditional salvation.

After this LDS theology teaches that it is only by merit and duty, not to god directly, but to eternal law, can man be saved (exalted). Faith and belief are only the first principles of making this happen, but it is not by grace, but by man doing. In other word the atonement (general salvation) only gets you foot in the door and really nothing more. JFS wrote something to the effect...that Jesus would like to save everyone but he can't, you have to do it on your own...and basically this is jehovahs plan revisited.

LDS teachings teach that the LDS god became god by following eternal law, it demand that Jesus had to become god of the Old Testament by following these same laws, and that you Droopy, if you are a good boy you to can become a god, you will have everything that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, all glory, all dominion, and all knowledge.

This is LDS core doctrine, your understanding of LDS thought forgets one major doctrine...the eternal law of progression, which in all reality is the true savior of the LDS faith, after the atonement allows you to follow these laws.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel

If I was the HP instructor and consig asked me his question, the best answer would be "the plan of salvation is not relevant to any extent in that we are all bound by eternal law, and just like you our HF had to become god by following these same laws to you have to follow" And then I would read this quote from the Melk. priesthood manual GTTA...pgs.114 - 115

HOW HE BECAME GOD

Yet, if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today. Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhood? In the first place, aeons ago God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed it. From day to day He exerted His will vigorously, and as a result became thoroughly acquainted with the forces lying about Him. As he gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete. Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became God by absolute obedience to all the eternal laws of the Gospel—by conforming His actions to all truth, and thereby became the author of eternal truth. Therefore, the road that the Eternal Father followed to Godhood was one of living at all times a dynamic, industrious, and completely righteous life. There is no other way to exaltation.

[_moksha]

Any conception of God, or the afterlife, that contemplates an infinite punishment (in any degree whatsoever) for wrongs committed during a finite, mortal existence, cannot be based on justice.

Show me a God with the loftiest of ideals and I will show you one that has risen above pettiness and retribution.

[_why me]

The life of Joseph Smith appears to teach as much.

Would you trade your life for the life of Joseph Smith? I doubt it. His life was no easy life. Just the opposite unless of course, you would like to be tarred and feathered, thrown in prison a couple of times, and finally murdered at the age of 38. Yep, quite a cakey life.

[_why me]

Consiglieri, what about the Church's heavy emphasis on earning heavenly brownie points? If everyone gets an even break, what makes us so special? Seems like this would would lead to a lower completion of home teaching assignments.

Thank you for getting the point precisely, Moksha!

It is remarkable to me that the Church that claims to be Christ's one and only has effectively relegated the Atonement to a footnote in their theology.

And it begins to become clearer how people can legitimately question the authenticity of Mormon Christianity.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Really?

http://www.LDS.org/daily-messages?lang= ... =Atonement

Atonement

*

"Throughout your life there may be times when you have gone places you never should have gone and done things you never should have done. If you will turn away from sin, you will be able one day to know the peace that comes from following the pathway of complete repentance."

—Boyd K. Packer, "Boyd K. Packer"
Topics: Repentance, Atonement
*

"The enabling power of the Atonement strengthens us to do and be good and to serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity."

—David A. Bednar, "The Atonement and the Journey of Mortality", Liahona and Ensign, April 2012
Topics: Jesus Christ, Atonement, Grace
*

"For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made. For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice."

—Alma 34:9-10, Book of Mormon
Topics: Fall, Atonement
*

"I say unto you, that I know of myself that whatsoever I shall say unto you, concerning that which is to come, is true; and I say unto you, that I know that Jesus Christ shall come, yea, the Son, the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, and mercy, and truth. And behold, it is he that cometh to take away the sins of the world, yea, the sins of every man who steadfastly believeth on his name."

—Alma 5:48, Book of Mormon
Topics: Jesus Christ, Atonement
*

"I do not know who in this vast audience today may need to hear the message of forgiveness inherent in this parable [of the laborers in the vineyard], but however late you think you are, however many chances you think you have missed, however many mistakes you feel you have made or talents you think you don’t have, or however far from home and family and God you feel you have traveled, I testify that you have not traveled beyond the reach of divine love. It is not possible for you to sink lower than the infinite light of Christ’s Atonement shines."

—Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, "The Laborers in the Vineyard", General Conference, Apr. 2012
Topics: Jesus Christ, Atonement
*

"The message, ministry, and Atonement of Jesus Christ, our Savior, is our essential family curriculum. No scripture characterizes our faith better than 2 Nephi 25:26: 'And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.'"

—Elder Quentin L. Cook, "In Tune with the Music of Faith", General Conference, Apr. 2012
Topics: Jesus Christ, Atonement
*

"I believe that none of us can conceive the full import of what Christ did for us in Gethsemane, but I am grateful every day of my life for His atoning sacrifice in our behalf. ... The darkness of death can ever be dispelled by the light of revealed truth. ‘I am the resurrection, and the life,’ spoke the Master. ‘He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.’"

—President Thomas S. Monson, "He Is Risen: A Prophet’s Testimony", Liahona, Apr. 2012
Topics: Jesus Christ, Atonement

[_why me]

Consiglieri, what about the Church's heavy emphasis on earning heavenly brownie points? If everyone gets an even break, what makes us so special? Seems like this would would lead to a lower completion of home teaching assignments.

Thank you for getting the point precisely, Moksha!

It is remarkable to me that the Church that claims to be Christ's one and only has effectively relegated the Atonement to a footnote in their theology.

And it begins to become clearer how people can legitimately question the authenticity of Mormon Christianity.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Really?

http://www.LDS.org/liahona/2012/10/one- ... =atonement

Fortunately, our loving and wise Eternal Father in Heaven has provided the means to overcome this prideful gap. The great and infinite Atonement is the supreme act of forgiveness and reconciliation. Its magnitude is beyond my understanding, but I testify with all my heart and soul of its reality and ultimate power. The Savior offered Himself as ransom for our sins. Through Him we gain forgiveness.

[_why me]

Consiglieri, what about the Church's heavy emphasis on earning heavenly brownie points? If everyone gets an even break, what makes us so special? Seems like this would would lead to a lower completion of home teaching assignments.

Thank you for getting the point precisely, Moksha!

It is remarkable to me that the Church that claims to be Christ's one and only has effectively relegated the Atonement to a footnote in their theology.

And it begins to become clearer how people can legitimately question the authenticity of Mormon Christianity.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Really?

Concerning the importance of the Atonement, in Alma we learn, “For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; … or else all mankind must unavoidably perish.”5

If you have made no mistakes, then you do not need the Atonement. If you have made mistakes, and all of us have, whether minor or serious, then you have an enormous need to find out how they can be erased so that you are no longer in darkness.

“[Jesus Christ] is the light and the life of the world.”6 As we fix our gaze on His teachings, we will be guided to the harbor of spiritual safety.

The third article of faith states, “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”7

President Joseph F. Smith taught: “Men cannot forgive their own sins; they cannot cleanse themselves from the consequences of their sins. Men can stop sinning and can do right in the future, and so far [as] their acts are acceptable before the Lord [become] worthy of consideration. But who shall repair the wrongs they have done to themselves and to others, which it seems impossible for them to repair themselves? By the atonement of Jesus Christ the sins of the repentant shall be washed away; though they be crimson they shall be made white as wool [see Isaiah 1:18]. This is the promise given to you.”8

We do not know exactly how the Lord accomplished the Atonement. But we do know that the cruel torture of crucifixion was only part of the horrific pain which began in Gethsemane—that sacred site of suffering—and was completed on Golgotha.

http://www.LDS.org/general-conference/2 ... =atonement

[_Markk]

Consiglieri, what about the Church's heavy emphasis on earning heavenly brownie points? If everyone gets an even break, what makes us so special? Seems like this would would lead to a lower completion of home teaching assignments.


Thank you for getting the point precisely, Moksha!

It is remarkable to me that the Church that claims to be Christ's one and only has effectively relegated the Atonement to a footnote in their theology.

And it begins to become clearer how people can legitimately question the authenticity of Mormon Christianity.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

why Me...Really?

http://www.LDS.org/liahona/2012/10/one- ... =atonement

[b]Fortunately, our loving and wise Eternal Father in Heaven has provided the means to overcome this prideful gap. The great and infinite Atonement is the supreme act of forgiveness and reconciliation. Its magnitude is beyond my understanding, but I testify with all my heart and soul of its reality and ultimate power. The Savior offered Himself as ransom for our sins. Through Him we gain forgiveness.[/b]

Hi whyme,
The LDS atonement only gives everyone the right to be resurrected (everlasting life), Hitler and stalin received this. True salvation to the saint (eternal life and life w/ HF, godhood, continuation of seeds...etc) can only come apart from the work of their Christ, and only by personal merit and duty; being obedient to the very same eternal laws that elohim had to be obedient to. This is LDS core thought, and all your quotes and teachings must be interpreted by and in context with this,( see above in bold w/ i)...LDS theology demands this.

"Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on merit-through the faithful performance of duty-only those who are worthy shall receive it." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie, 2:, p.5

In all reallity LDS members are really not being obedient to their HF, but to eternal law. HF gained control and complete access to these laws, and in a limited sense are his laws, but in all reality he to is bound by them and they were before him just as they were before you. Granted... they are most likely co-existent with what Joseph Smith described as "intelligence."

This teaching has been watered down and more or less forgotten by the current generation of LDS members, but it is the single most pillar of how a LDS person is saved and exalted...the atonement only allows a LDS person to earn their personal salvation.

Consig misunderstands the atonement as defined by LDS doctrine. LDS doctrine demands that the atonement is only a footnote, it only relieves man from Adams sin and gives them only everlasting life...the problem is current LDS teachers want to be so main-stream in their image, they water down obedience to eternal law (3 article of faith) and throw the word atonement around in a evangelical context masking it limited role is LDS salvation (exaltation)...and what you get is life long Mormons that do not even understand how they receive eternal life, and who the supreme force in the "univese actually is...eternal law.

Solid teachings on this is... Gospel through the Ages...Hunter, Religous Truths Defined by JFS jr, and Doctrines of Salvation by JFS.

[_consiglieri]

Would you trade your life for the life of Joseph Smith?

In a heartbeat, Why Me.

We are not all the shy and retiring type.