How to Throw a Wrench into High Priest Group

[_Droopy]

LDS theology teaches that one can neither accept or deny the atonement, believing does not matter, nor does full denial of gods existence. The atonement is given to every person born in this world, less arguablly the SOP, and they get it whether they want it or not. This is general or unconditional salvation.

Incorrect and abstruse, as stated.

After this LDS theology teaches that it is only by merit and duty, not to god directly, but to eternal law, can man be saved (exalted).

Incorrect. We are saved by the enabling grace of Jesus Christ through the power of the Atonement. Our personal righteousness, or good works, are worthless without it. Our personal righteousness, or goodness, only prepare, nurture, and capacitate the soul to receive the blessings of the Atonement; they do not directly "save" us. And even here, our ability to do good and live righteously is grounded in and dependent upon, to a great degree, assistance and enabling power from God (faith itself is a gift of God as much as a mentality we develop and deploy in our own struggle with our lower nature and with the Adversary).

Secondly, or duty and responsibilities are, indeed, taught by the Church to be to God, not to "eternal law." The first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, not in eternal law, and it is to God we owe our gratitude, loyalty, duty, and to whom we account for our stewardships while on earth, not to eternal law.

We pray to our Father in Heaven, not to the abstract concepts of which he is the perfect and exalted representative and exemplar.

Faith and belief are only the first principles of making this happen, but it is not by grace, but by man doing. In other word the atonement (general salvation) only gets you foot in the door and really nothing more. JFS wrote something to the effect...that Jesus would like to save everyone but he can't, you have to do it on your own...and basically this is jehovahs plan revisited.

None of this is even approximate to established LDS doctrine.
"Man doing" is on no value whatsoever, regarding salvation and exaltation (physical resurrection of itself is an effect of the Atonement, but is in no other way connected to either salvation or its ultimate manifestation, exaltation) without the vicarious atonement for our individual sins made by the Savior. Our works make the Atonement active in our lives and create a healthy spiritual medium within the soul within which the Atonement and grace of Christ can work to empower, enable, and facilitate the eventual sanctification of the individual - being born again.

We cannot be saved without personal obedience to the commandments and counsels of God, but this is not the same as claiming that obedience and good works themselves are that which saves us. They are elements necessary to the process of salvation, but the Atonement is at the center of that process and represents something that we could not do for ourselves and without which the "merit" of which you speak is of no value.

In other words, our personal righteousness actualizes the Atonement in our lives, and the Atonement sanctifies our otherwise salvationally inconsequential acts of goodness and obedience to God's laws toward eternal ends.

LDS teachings teach that the LDS god became god by following eternal law,

True.

it demands that Jesus had to become god of the Old Testament by following these same laws, and that you Droopy, if you are a good boy you to can become a god, you will have everything that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, all glory, all dominion, and all knowledge.

Yes...

This is LDS core doctrine, your understanding of LDS thought forgets one major doctrine...the eternal law of progression, which in all reality is the true savior of the LDS faith, after the atonement allows you to follow these laws.

You're opening a huge can of philosophical worms here that I don't really have the inclination to get into, at the moment, suffice it to say that "all reality," leaving definitions aside for the moment, does not save. "Reality" (the actuality of the universe and all states, conditions, and phenomena within it at any given time) is the substrate, or substructure within which both humans and God are embedded that is the phenomenal and ontological precondition for either salvation or damnation to exist at all. God saves within this framework, but the framework itself is not the saving agent, only the scaffolding upon which that which one would call "eternal law" is constructed. "Reality" provides that salvation, like all other processes in the universe, is lawful and conditioned by certain rules, but "it" does not save or exalt us. We, in harmony and cooperation with Christ, through the power of this Atonement and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, accomplish that.

If I was the HP instructor and consig asked me his question, the best answer would be "the plan of salvation is not relevant to any extent in that we are all bound by eternal law, and just like you our HF had to become god by following these same laws to you have to follow" And then I would read this quote from the Melk. priesthood manual GTTA...pgs.114 - 115

This is incoherent. How is the plan of salvation - the organized, elucidated pattern by which man comes to understand eternal law and the requirements of salvation relative to it - irrelevant to the plan of salvation? How can eternal law be irrelevant to eternal law? What are you attempting to assert here?

[_consiglieri]

Incorrect and abstruse, as stated.

You just buried the needle on my irony meter.

[_Droopy]

Incorrect and abstruse, as stated.

You just buried the needle on my irony meter.

As always, you have an opportunity to engage in serious, critical discussion, and you choose the low road of snark.

Not irony, just SOP.

[_consiglieri]

Some days there just aren't enough words.

[_consiglieri]

By the way, Why Me, your redundant references notwithstanding, it has been my experience that the most common perception of the Atonement in LDS circles is that Jesus is a janitor who comes along behind us to mop up when we make a mess.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_RockSlider]

By the way, Why Me, your redundant references notwithstanding, it has been my experience that the most common perception of the Atonement in LDS circles is that Jesus is a janitor who comes along behind us to mop up when we make a mess.

He always needs to following me, not only with the mop ...

[_Chap]

Well, here is the official dope:

LDS.org on the Atonement

Atonement of Jesus Christ

As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind. Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God.

Additional Information

As descendants of Adam and Eve, all people inherit the effects of the Fall. In our fallen state, we are subject to opposition and temptation. When we give in to temptation, we are alienated from God, and if we continue in sin, we experience spiritual death, being separated from His presence. We are all subject to temporal death, which is the death of the physical body (see Alma 42:6-9; D&C 29:41–42).

The only way for us to be saved is for someone else to rescue us. We need someone who can satisfy the demands of justice—standing in our place to assume the burden of the Fall and to pay the price for our sins. Jesus Christ has always been the only one capable of making such a sacrifice.

From before the Creation of the earth, the Savior has been our only hope for "peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come" (D&C 59:23).

Only He had the power to lay down His life and take it up again. From His mortal mother, Mary, He inherited the ability to die. From His immortal Father, He inherited the power to overcome death. He declared, "As the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself" (John 5:26).

Only He could redeem us from our sins. God the Father gave Him this power (see Helaman 5:11). The Savior was able to receive this power and carry out the Atonement because He kept Himself free from sin: "He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them" (D&C 20:22). Having lived a perfect, sinless life, He was free from the demands of justice. Because He had the power of redemption and because He had no debt to justice, he could pay the debt for those who repent.

Jesus's atoning sacrifice took place in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross at Calvary. In Gethsemane He submitted to the will of the Father and began to take upon Himself the sins of all people. He has revealed some of what He experienced as He paid the price for our sins:

"I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

"But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

"Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

"Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men" (D&C 19:16–19; see also Luke 22:44; Mosiah 3:7).

The Savior continued to suffer for our sins when He allowed Himself to be crucified—"lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world" (1 Nephi 11:33).

On the cross, He allowed Himself to die. His body was then laid in a tomb until He was resurrected and became "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20). Through His death and Resurrection, He overcame physical death for us all.

Jesus Christ redeems all people from the effects of the Fall. All people who have ever lived on the earth and who ever will live on the earth will be resurrected and brought back into the presence of God to be judged (see 2 Nephi 2:5–10; Helaman 14:15–17). Through the Savior's gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies.

Although we are redeemed unconditionally from the universal effects of the Fall, we are accountable for our own sins. But we can be forgiven and cleansed from the stain of sin if we "apply the atoning blood of Christ" (Mosiah 4:2). We must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized for the remission of sins, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

But if I get this bit unconditionally:

Through the Savior's gift of mercy and redeeming grace, we will all receive the gift of immortality and live forever in glorified, resurrected bodies.

(My emphasis)

... that sounds a pretty good deal - and I don't have to do a thing to get it, right?

[_RockSlider]

... that sounds a pretty good deal - and I don't have to do a thing to get it, right?

Well they left out the part about us apostates that have denied the HG ... we resurrect, get judged and then back into the potters clay bucket we go ...

[_Chap]

... that sounds a pretty good deal - and I don't have to do a thing to get it, right?

Well they left out the part about us apostates that have denied the HG ... we resurrect, get judged and then back into the potters clay bucket we go ...

But I'm a nevermo, so I get the free ride, OK?

[_Drifting]

... that sounds a pretty good deal - and I don't have to do a thing to get it, right?

Well they left out the part about us apostates that have denied the HG ... we resurrect, get judged and then back into the potters clay bucket we go ...

Not if we at some point got a temple marriage (or two..). D&C 132 makes it clear that temple sealed people, regardless of post sealing sinning (except if you shed innocent blood), are guarenteed a seat at the top table. obviously that's like second insurance policy in the event the whole Jesus atonement thing turns out to be over leveraged...