How to Throw a Wrench into High Priest Group

[_Gunnar]

I think consig's question is a fair one, and neither bcspace nor droopy have adequately addressed it. Droopy, you object saying that the atonement's purpose is not to avoid consequences, but to redeem and cleanse from sin. Well, how is that not an avoidance of consequences? Justice would presumably require us to be punished for sins X, Y, and Z, but due to accepting Christ's atonement, that punishment is avoided. Punishment is a consequence of sin. The punishment is not annulled or removed (Christ suffered it, after all), it is simply avoided (or perhaps more accurately--evaded) by the repentant sinner. Thus, consequence avoided. Droopy, you put a different spin on it and using different words, but essentially that is what's happening.

Consig's question goes to the heart of the central fallacy of Christianity: why is Jesus needed at all? Assuming the eternal existence of the soul, why couldn't each sinner suffer for his/her own sins until justice be satisfied? If the heavenly laws of justice require some form of punishment for earthly misdeeds, then why can't that punishment be exacted individually for each person? If the white lie I told my mom when I was young requires a sentence of 20 minutes in the fiery depths of hell, then why can't I just pay for it myself? Our own justice systems have sentencing guidelines designed to be commensurate with the gravity of the crime; why can't God have one, too? Surely God, who is omniscient and knows perfectly the exact culpability of each person in any given sin, is in a great position to quantify the amount of punishment required for the misdeeds of any sinner. Any conception of God, or the afterlife, that contemplates an infinite punishment (in any degree whatsoever) for wrongs committed during a finite, mortal existence, cannot be based on justice.

I second consiglieri's assessment of your response. I have never heard it stated better! I agree that the idea that an entirely innocent being would necessarily have to be punished even in the slightest degree (let alone, cruelly tortured to death) to atone for the sins of the guilty, before anyone could be forgiven of their sins is as far removed from any rational concept of justice as anything could possibly be!

[_consiglieri]

A local evangelical radio show host closes his daily sermon with an altar call combining the sacrificial necessity of Christ's death with the Trinity in the following words:

You know, friends, God loved you so much that He died for you in order to give you the opportunity and the ability to be forgiven of your sins.

Two enigmas in one sentence make my head hurt.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Markk]

LDS theology teaches that one can neither accept or deny the atonement, believing does not matter, nor does full denial of gods existence. The atonement is given to every person born in this world, less arguablly the SOP, and they get it whether they want it or not. This is general or unconditional salvation.

Incorrect and abstruse, as stated.

After this LDS theology teaches that it is only by merit and duty, not to god directly, but to eternal law, can man be saved (exalted).

Incorrect. We are saved by the enabling grace of Jesus Christ through the power of the Atonement. Our personal righteousness, or good works, are worthless without it. Our personal righteousness, or goodness, only prepare, nurture, and capacitate the soul to receive the blessings of the Atonement; they do not directly "save" us. And even here, our ability to do good and live righteously is grounded in and dependent upon, to a great degree, assistance and enabling power from God (faith itself is a gift of God as much as a mentality we develop and deploy in our own struggle with our lower nature and with the Adversary).

Secondly, or duty and responsibilities are, indeed, taught by the Church to be to God, not to "eternal law." The first principle of the gospel is faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, not in eternal law, and it is to God we owe our gratitude, loyalty, duty, and to whom we account for our stewardships while on earth, not to eternal law.

We pray to our Father in Heaven, not to the abstract concepts of which he is the perfect and exalted representative and exemplar.

Faith and belief are only the first principles of making this happen, but it is not by grace, but by man doing. In other word the atonement (general salvation) only gets you foot in the door and really nothing more. JFS wrote something to the effect...that Jesus would like to save everyone but he can't, you have to do it on your own...and basically this is jehovahs plan revisited.

None of this is even approximate to established LDS doctrine.
"Man doing" is on no value whatsoever, regarding salvation and exaltation (physical resurrection of itself is an effect of the Atonement, but is in no other way connected to either salvation or its ultimate manifestation, exaltation) without the vicarious atonement for our individual sins made by the Savior. Our works make the Atonement active in our lives and create a healthy spiritual medium within the soul within which the Atonement and grace of Christ can work to empower, enable, and facilitate the eventual sanctification of the individual - being born again.

We cannot be saved without personal obedience to the commandments and counsels of God, but this is not the same as claiming that obedience and good works themselves are that which saves us. They are elements necessary to the process of salvation, but the Atonement is at the center of that process and represents something that we could not do for ourselves and without which the "merit" of which you speak is of no value.

In other words, our personal righteousness actualizes the Atonement in our lives, and the Atonement sanctifies our otherwise salvationally inconsequential acts of goodness and obedience to God's laws toward eternal ends.

LDS teachings teach that the LDS god became god by following eternal law,

True.

it demands that Jesus had to become god of the Old Testament by following these same laws, and that you Droopy, if you are a good boy you to can become a god, you will have everything that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, all glory, all dominion, and all knowledge.

Yes...

This is LDS core doctrine, your understanding of LDS thought forgets one major doctrine...the eternal law of progression, which in all reality is the true savior of the LDS faith, after the atonement allows you to follow these laws.

You're opening a huge can of philosophical worms here that I don't really have the inclination to get into, at the moment, suffice it to say that "all reality," leaving definitions aside for the moment, does not save. "Reality" (the actuality of the universe and all states, conditions, and phenomena within it at any given time) is the substrate, or substructure within which both humans and God are embedded that is the phenomenal and ontological precondition for either salvation or damnation to exist at all. God saves within this framework, but the framework itself is not the saving agent, only the scaffolding upon which that which one would call "eternal law" is constructed. "Reality" provides that salvation, like all other processes in the universe, is lawful and conditioned by certain rules, but "it" does not save or exalt us. We, in harmony and cooperation with Christ, through the power of this Atonement and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, accomplish that.

If I was the HP instructor and consig asked me his question, the best answer would be "the plan of salvation is not relevant to any extent in that we are all bound by eternal law, and just like you our HF had to become god by following these same laws to you have to follow" And then I would read this quote from the Melk. priesthood manual GTTA...pgs.114 - 115

This is incoherent. How is the plan of salvation - the organized, elucidated pattern by which man comes to understand eternal law and the requirements of salvation relative to it - irrelevant to the plan of salvation? How can eternal law be irrelevant to eternal law? What are you attempting to assert here?

Hi Droopy,

Well, you are simply wrong...Hitler received the atonement as does every atheist, perverts, child molesters etc...it is given to all. Talmage in the 4th appendix of the Articles of Faith makes this very clear, quoting OP...I will find it and quote this fact later. I will give you it is indeed abstruce, but only in that it is a major flaw in Smiths evolution of the LDS faith, like Jesus being the god of Israel before he had a body...this whole subject is a mess in that Smith did not think it out.

This is the first effect of the atonement, the second being it gets your foot in the door to work and earn by merit and duty true salvation...which is exaltation to godhood, LDS teachings say there is no other way..

He became God by absolute obedience to all the eternal laws of the Gospel—by conforming His actions to all truth, and thereby became the author of eternal truth. Therefore, the road that the Eternal Father followed to Godhood was one of living at all times a dynamic, industrious, and completely righteous life. There is no other way to exaltation. (Melk. Prieshood Teaching manual...GTTA, Hunter Chapter 17...Bold mine)

Your assertion that it is incorrect is fine, but at least state why, so I can either say I was wrong, or that you simply do not understand LDS thought...with out your "correction" I am forced to believe the latter.

Bottom line this subject is so messed up in LDS thought that I most likely could take several positions, but my assertion is that (in LDS context) all men must follow eternal law to be exalted, even the same laws elohim had to follow, and that the so called secondary effect of the atonement goes no further than the first principles of the LDS gospel as stated in the 4th article of faith, the 3rd article of the creed makes it muddy clear by using the words 'through' and 'may' that self effort by obedience to (eternal) laws man "may be saved". This article demands exaltation in that the 2nd article in the creed qualifies the 3rd and 4th articles as such.

2.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4.
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost

I have to run, I will address the requirements of "merit and duty" and why this is a demand of LDS thought... and show this by quoting LDS teachings from Joseph Smith to Monson on merit and duty. And, I will discuss how god became god according to LDS teachings, and the demands on these teachings that form LDS thought on what the TELoP actually is, and what and whom it governs.

Thanks
Mark

[_Markk]

Droopy,

Here is the quote from Talmage, originally from Orson Pratt's remarkable visions giving his commentary on the 3rd article of faith...unconditional salvation (universal).

We believe, that through the sufferings, death, and atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind, without one exception, are to be completely, and fully redeemed, both body and spirit, from the endless banishment and curse, to which they were consigned, by Adam's transgression; and that this universal salvation and redemption of the whole human family from the endless penalty of the original sin, is effected, without any conditions whatsoever on their part; that is, that they are not required to believe, or repent, or be baptized, or do any thing else, in order to be redeemed from that penalty; for whether they believe or disbelieve, whether they repent or remain inpenitent, whether they be baptized or unbaptized, whether they keep the commandments or break them, whether they are righteous or unrighteous, it will make no difference in relation to their redemption, both soul and body, from the penalty of Adam's transgression. The most righteous man that ever lived on the earth, and the most wicked wretch of the whole human family, were both placed under the same curse, without any transgression or agency of their own, and they both, alike, will be redeemed from that curse, without any agency or conditions on their part. ( Rom. v. 18. is quoted as prooftext)

From the current GP...

Christ thus overcame physical death. Because of His Atonement, everyone born on this earth will be resurrected (see 1 Corinthians 15:21–22). Just as Jesus was resurrected, our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, “that they can die no more … , never to be divided” (Alma 11:45). This condition is called immortality. All people who have ever lived will be resurrected, “both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous” (Alma 11:44).

Droopy wrote...Incorrect. We are saved by the enabling grace of Jesus Christ through the power of the Atonement. Our personal righteousness, or good works, are worthless without it. Our personal righteousness, or goodness, only prepare, nurture, and capacitate the soul to receive the blessings of the Atonement; they do not directly "save" us. And even here, our ability to do good and live righteously is grounded in and dependent upon, to a great degree, assistance and enabling power from God (faith itself is a gift of God as much as a mentality we develop and deploy in our own struggle with our lower nature and with the Adversary).

Explain how what you wrote "blends with above LDS teachings and the below LDS teachings...talk to me in your own words, droopy. I am asserting that if elohim, and all other gods had to follow eternal law, and progress by obedience to these laws to the nature or position of "godhood", and that there is "no ther way,"then in all reallity the atonement of the LDS savior ( universal salvation), only allows one to get their foot in the door at best. I understand that LDS teachings say that it is through the atonement that men are saved, but again, I am asserting that the demands of TELoP Trump the cross of the LDS savior beyond their teaching of unconditional salvation.

HOW HE BECAME GOD

GTTA pages 114 - 115Yet, if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today. Then how did He become glorified and exalted and attain His present status of Godhood? In the first place, aeons ago God undoubtedly took advantage of every opportunity to learn the laws of truth and as He became acquainted with each new verity He righteously obeyed it. From day to day He exerted His will vigorously, and as a result became thoroughly acquainted with the forces lying about Him. As he gained more knowledge through persistent effort and continuous industry, as well as through absolute obedience, His understanding of the universal laws continued to become more complete. Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood. In other words, He became God by absolute obedience to all the eternal laws of the Gospel—by conforming His actions to all truth, and thereby became the author of eternal truth. Therefore, the road that the Eternal Father followed to Godhood was one of living at all times a dynamic, industrious, and completely righteous life. There is no other way to exaltation.

"Very gladly would the Lord give to everyone eternal life, but since that blessing can come only on merit-through the faithful performance of duty-only those who are worthy shall receive it." - Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie, 2:, p.5

Thanks
MG