Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

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_bcspace
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _bcspace »

Which is why I keep coming back and lurking here. It is very good entertainment.


I agree. Most of us who are intellectually honest find great humor here. Notice, for example, how I provide some additional logical alternatives and then the subject changes.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Rufus
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _Rufus »

bcspace wrote:
Sometimes the team you support loses members in droves because your team is just rubbish and the coach doesn't have a credible game plan.


Sure. Also, the team could be great in all areas yet suffer significant loss because members are being lured off by "greater" promises that are ultimately unkept. Thankfully, the LDS Church is in neither category.


And then other times its players leave in droves because they find out that the founder of the team had hundreds of sexual encounters with multiple women other than his wife. The team charter he established was based on his imagination rather than actual fact. This same team charter repeatedly was changed to reflect acceptable social norms of the time. And the team was willing to lie to its players to continue to garner their support and in fact created a system in which it was frowned upon for a player to seek out the truth, no matter where that truth led them, thus ensuring the future of the cult, er team.
Adieu, -Rufus-
_Maxrep
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _Maxrep »

beastie wrote:Yes, my summary over-simplified, and his book addressed the issues you all raised. Ideas do matter in that some ideas produce more successful communities, others less so.



I'm not sure that you over simplified for the point you are making. If doctrine itself were that critical, then educated and socially balanced individuals would convert to Mormonism in this day and age. In short, they don't. Today, we only can convert the uneducated persons who are starving for positive human relationships. Friendly missionaries and member friendshipping provide this affirmative social interaction they lack. They certainly didn't lack Joseph Smith or Temple rituals in their lives.

Here is a post I made recently where a similar "social game" connection is made. For myself, I am firmly convinced it is all social, which encompasses familial relations and extended family;

" For many years I was fascinated with church history. Deducting that the church is NOT true is childs play, really. What interests me now are the social motivations within the church and their causes.

Mormonism is a heratige, it is a culture, for all practical intents it can be quite similar to an ethnicity as well. For many who live in high LDS populous regions, it is nothing short of an all encompassing life experience.

The doctrine itself serves as "rules of the game". The game, however, is completely social.

In a high LDS populous environment, a member participates in the game as a competitor, as a spectator, and most importantly, as a judge. Yes, there are all sorts of obvious and subtle clues that tell Mormons how their competition is faring within the ward. Of course, the savvy competitors put on their best poker face to obscure whatever difficulties they currently experience. What sort of poker face does the wife try to wear when it is clear that in the particular tandem race in question, the husband has stopped pedaling?

In a low LDS populous region, with no LDS family members, how often does a member get to "play the game"? Not often, obviously. When one has "few spectators", and when one is "playing the game" not often, how important are the rules(doctrine) of the game?

If reading the Book of Mormon was to be a private matter only, not to be discussed or referred to publicly, would members still read it? If paying tithing was to be done online to Salt Lake City in an anonymous fashion, with no reporting or accounting to local clergy, would members still pay?

Mormonism cannot function in a social vacuum. It needs competitors. It has to have spectators. It absolutely thrives on the fact that all get to try their hand at "Line Judge".

Stormy, what is it like for your wife when all the other competitors, spectators, and line judges are pointing at you wide eyed and all. You are the spectacle as well as her embarrassment. Its all social. The doctrine is window dressing."
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
_beastie
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _beastie »

bcspace wrote:
Which is why I keep coming back and lurking here. It is very good entertainment.


I agree. Most of us who are intellectually honest find great humor here. Notice, for example, how I provide some additional logical alternatives and then the subject changes.


The subject hasn't changed. You just haven't produced any comments that are actually pertinent to my OP, rather than the one you constructed in your head.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _beastie »

Maxrep wrote:I'm not sure that you over simplified for the point you are making. If doctrine itself were that critical, then educated and socially balanced individuals would convert to Mormonism in this day and age. In short, they don't. Today, we only can convert the uneducated persons who are starving for positive human relationships. Friendly missionaries and member friendshipping provide this affirmative social interaction they lack. They certainly didn't lack Joseph Smith or Temple rituals in their lives.

Here is a post I made recently where a similar "social game" connection is made. For myself, I am firmly convinced it is all social, which encompasses familial relations and extended family;

" For many years I was fascinated with church history. Deducting that the church is NOT true is childs play, really. What interests me now are the social motivations within the church and their causes.

Mormonism is a heratige, it is a culture, for all practical intents it can be quite similar to an ethnicity as well. For many who live in high LDS populous regions, it is nothing short of an all encompassing life experience.

The doctrine itself serves as "rules of the game". The game, however, is completely social.

In a high LDS populous environment, a member participates in the game as a competitor, as a spectator, and most importantly, as a judge. Yes, there are all sorts of obvious and subtle clues that tell Mormons how their competition is faring within the ward. Of course, the savvy competitors put on their best poker face to obscure whatever difficulties they currently experience. What sort of poker face does the wife try to wear when it is clear that in the particular tandem race in question, the husband has stopped pedaling?

In a low LDS populous region, with no LDS family members, how often does a member get to "play the game"? Not often, obviously. When one has "few spectators", and when one is "playing the game" not often, how important are the rules(doctrine) of the game?

If reading the Book of Mormon was to be a private matter only, not to be discussed or referred to publicly, would members still read it? If paying tithing was to be done online to Salt Lake City in an anonymous fashion, with no reporting or accounting to local clergy, would members still pay?

Mormonism cannot function in a social vacuum. It needs competitors. It has to have spectators. It absolutely thrives on the fact that all get to try their hand at "Line Judge".

Stormy, what is it like for your wife when all the other competitors, spectators, and line judges are pointing at you wide eyed and all. You are the spectacle as well as her embarrassment. Its all social. The doctrine is window dressing."


I think your observations are accurate. Mormonism is about the social connections made between people. There are online defenders of the faith who seem to recognize that when they insist that Mormonism is really about how we treat others, versus historical and doctrinal items.

Not only do people who need some sort of social support tend to be more attracted to Mormonism than those who are socially secure, but this fact is well-known to GAs and they teach missionaries to take advantage of that fact. Or at least this was the case back in the early eighties, when I was a missionary. We were taught to look for people "in transition" - college students, new parents, people who had just lost a family member.

But what I did oversimplify was that only certain religions tend to have the sort of success that impacts possible group selection. Haidt contends that it is theistic religions that teach a God who is interested in moral behavior that succeed. The earlier gods who were somewhat capricious, random, and not that invested in human behavior, would not have this effect.

I loved this book so much that I'm typing up some of the quotes that I found most instructive. I'm a little busy right now, but hopefully sometime soon I'll be able to come back to this thread with more thoughts and quotes.

I will say that this book has had a tremendous impact on my judgment of religion. I have varied a lot in that over the years since becoming an atheist. Part of me has always recognized that religion must have served some beneficial purpose for human beings, otherwise it wouldn't be so nearly universal. But I wasn't sure that purpose was still valid. Haidt makes a strong argument that it is, and that society, in general, does need religion. I'll come back to that argument of his when I have time later. I found it very persuasive.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_honorentheos
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _honorentheos »

Haidt gave a TED talk around the time the book was coming out in press. It covers some of the very basic information that underlies part of what beastie brought up in the OP.

See it here: TED Feb 2012

This one from 2008 covers moral values and, shocking to some, he makes the case that conservatives have a more complex moral landscape than liberals:

Conservatives and Liberals

Keep in mind it was given to a group composed of primarily liberal people. I think he approaches this particular presentation as a way of "cracking the door" to reaching across to others at a time when liberals were practically frothing over the effects of the Bush era.

One of the most personal, and I'd add enlightening moments in the book is Haidt's own story. He talks about being a typical atheist, progressive minded person who, through a lengthy process of at least a decade, came to appreciate that there was more to religion and the religious mind than he was prepared to understand. A big part of this came from living in India where culture and religion are much more intertwined.

I think that is the greatest value of the book actually. Read closely and with an open mind it clearly suggests that both sides have much to learn from one another and - most importantly - no one is actually wrong in some empirical sense, at least when it comes to evolutionary socio-biology and cooperative cultural behaviour. I think the only people who will end up hating the book are the dismissively nu-atheist types who are not willing to open their minds to the prospect religion and conservative "fly-over" American's might be right about things that are important to humanity.

Good book. Can't recommend it enough.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_America Jane
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _America Jane »

Kishkumen wrote:You'll have to excuse, bc. Most of his commentary is an internal dialogue that he shares with us as though he were responding to something we actually wrote, when it is usually just his lecture to the imaginary liberal, ex-Mormon, atheist construct in his head that he fears like the boogeyman.


"Angels above are silent notes taking"

There are Only so Many Times We can Excuse this One...
Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to was never there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it...
_honorentheos
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _honorentheos »

beastie wrote:I will say that this book has had a tremendous impact on my judgment of religion. I have varied a lot in that over the years since becoming an atheist. Part of me has always recognized that religion must have served some beneficial purpose for human beings, otherwise it wouldn't be so nearly universal. But I wasn't sure that purpose was still valid. Haidt makes a strong argument that it is, and that society, in general, does need religion. I'll come back to that argument of his when I have time later. I found it very persuasive.

Good points, beastie. I hope you find time to share some more of the thoughts and quotes you mentioned collecting above.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_Ceeboo
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _Ceeboo »

Are you sure this book wasn't written with the MDB in mind? :razz:


Are you sure?


Peace,
Ceeboo
_bcspace
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Re: Religion = team sport, Doctrine = team colors

Post by _bcspace »

I think touches upon why many exmormons get frustrated with believers who know the controversial facts but continue to believe


What "facts"?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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