To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

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_Droopy
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Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _Droopy »

kjones wrote:
Droopy wrote:Romney's charitable activities have been massive....


Aside from the fact that Droopy needs a lesson in the uses of understatement, the above brings to mind something Hugh Nibley said about charitable giving:

"What counts is not how much you give away but how much you keep for yourself."


Quite fortunately for us, Hugh Nibley had no mantel of authority to establish or interpret doctrine for the Church.

This is also the same man who once quipped that the Soviet Union was a society "more committed to sharing." http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=765

Some things, as Orwell once said, are so crazy, so bizarre, and so ludicrous, that only an intellectual could possibly believe them (Boyce's estimates on the number of human beings sacrificed on the alter of socialism's "better world" are a bit out of date. Including Frank Dikötter's new scholarship on the Great Leap Forward, its now more in the range of 120 to 130 million - and counting).
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_cwald
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Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _cwald »

Droopy wrote:
Quite fortunately for us, Hugh Nibley had no mantel of authority to establish or interpret doctrine for the Church...


I can think of at least one other person who has no mantel of authority to establish or interpret doctrine for the church...but yet they continually do so all the time on this board.

Perhaps, Droopy, you should actually start listening to your own prophets.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_Droopy
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Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _Droopy »

Matthew, in chapter 19, wrote:Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


Same old tired shibboleths. Same old prese- 70p97ntist bibilical prooftexting. Same old threadbare projecting of contemporary modern leftist (primarily 19th and 20th century German and continental generally speaking) political ideologies upon the scriptures. At the very least, this verse - who's context is one individual - cannot possibly be used to extrapolate a larger doctrinal point, at least one having global social and economic significance. The very fact that Jesus challenged this person in this manner is not, logically, a basis from which to extract a body of doctrine justifying a collectivist or egalitarian social order (which, if Jesus had wished to actually teach, could very well have done so).

From an LDS perspective, the likely scenario is that Jesus was challenging the rich man's heart - he was asking whether or not this man was capable ("A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.") of selling all he had and giving to the poor, as a condition of discipleship. That he was actually asking him to physically do so, unless he was inviting him into the apostleship, is wholly outside established LDS doctrine and wholly outside the concepts and rules governing the LoC as restored in this dispensation, and hence, can be easily dispensed with.

Its also irrational and preposterously stupid, as a general mandate regarding human economic life. God is the most intelligent of all beings, says the PofGP. So is God stupid or intelligent? Shall we make up our minds? NOM and apostate liberal Mormons should also make up their minds as to precisely what they mean when they speak of "abolishing" poverty or beating their breasts over the "no rich and no poor" statements regarding the UO. The argument you've made (and many other LDS "progressives") have made here is that, for Jesus, poverty is a virtue, and should be actively sought. On the other hand, you claim to want to abolish poverty and somehow see to it that there is plenty for all.

Now, if this statement to the rich young man is a general doctrinal mandate to all Christians, and by extension, all people, then what this logically amounts to is a call to a global vow of poverty among the world's people generally. At the very least, it amounts to a call to a vow of self-inflicted poverty by all those who call themselves Christians (about two billion people, at present).

Yet, a global, or mass, if not global, call to divest ourselves of all our property and cash by transferring it to the poor, would appear to be grossly inconsistent with the ideal of there being "no poor among us." How then does making hundreds of millions of affluent people poor either

1. Ultimately help the poor.

2. Harmonize with gospel doctrine relative to Zion communities that there will be no poor?

Other first principles questions also need to be answered:

1. How is wealth created?

2. Do the poor have any responsibilities or participation in the wealth creation process?

3. What is the ultimate answer to poverty on an individual and societal basis, state distribution of produced wealth, or individual creation of personal wealth over the expanse of a normal lifetime?

4. Is economic dependence or economic independence the better state of affairs? Which is both economically and morally the more viable condition?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_cwald
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Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _cwald »

Droopy. Don't we as a Mormon people, covenant to live the Law of Consecration?

I believe even you have done so...to give EVERYTHING to the church...time, money, property...everything. Sure. We may not practice it today...but the church believes it and teaches it.

No?

Are you calling the church prophets idiots?
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_Droopy
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Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _Droopy »

cwald wrote:
Droopy wrote:
Quite fortunately for us, Hugh Nibley had no mantel of authority to establish or interpret doctrine for the Church...


I can think of at least one other person who has no mantel of authority to establish or interpret doctrine for the church...but yet they continually do so all the time on this board.

Perhaps, Droopy, you should actually start listening to your own prophets.



I've never done any such thing. Anything and everything I've ever said in this forum of a clear, doctrinal nature, is either established, settled doctrine, or parsimonious logical inferences from established doctrine and LDS philosophy that is well within those boundaries and which has already been fielded by other General Authorities. Outside of that, I make clear when I'm speculating and engaging in philosophical exploration, and I don't hold anyone to any of that, let alone the Church.

Good to see you dodging the actual arguments under consideration, but that's just typical, isn't it (and now, the entire country is under the control of a cult of argument dodging leftists who's only retorts to critical analysis are emotion-driven rants, personal smears, and the relegation of their opponents to the void of non-personhood.

All leftism is ultimately totalitarian in both core assumption and inevitable application, enough time to develop its inherent tendencies.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_cwald
_Emeritus
Posts: 4443
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:53 pm

Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _cwald »

Droopy wrote:

I've never done any such thing. Anything and everything I've ever said in this forum of a clear, doctrinal nature, is either established, settled doctrine, or parsimonious logical inferences from established doctrine and LDS philosophy that is well within those boundaries and which has already been fielded by other General Authorities. Outside of that, I make clear when I'm speculating and engaging in philosophical exploration, and I don't hold anyone to any of that, let alone the Church.

Good to see you dodging the actual arguments under consideration, but that's just typical, isn't it (and now, the entire country is under the control of a cult of argument dodging leftists who's only retorts to critical analysis are emotion-driven rants, personal smears, and the relegation of their opponents to the void of non-personhood.

All leftism is ultimately totalitarian in both core assumption and inevitable application, enough time to develop its inherent tendencies.


Are you joking? You accuse others of "...emotion-driven rants, personal smears, and the relegation of their opponents to the void of non-personhood."

Wow. Just wow.
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _Droopy »

Are you calling the church prophets idiots?



No. I have that term reserved for other others.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _Droopy »

cwald wrote:
Droopy wrote:

I've never done any such thing. Anything and everything I've ever said in this forum of a clear, doctrinal nature, is either established, settled doctrine, or parsimonious logical inferences from established doctrine and LDS philosophy that is well within those boundaries and which has already been fielded by other General Authorities. Outside of that, I make clear when I'm speculating and engaging in philosophical exploration, and I don't hold anyone to any of that, let alone the Church.

Good to see you dodging the actual arguments under consideration, but that's just typical, isn't it (and now, the entire country is under the control of a cult of argument dodging leftists who's only retorts to critical analysis are emotion-driven rants, personal smears, and the relegation of their opponents to the void of non-personhood.

All leftism is ultimately totalitarian in both core assumption and inevitable application, enough time to develop its inherent tendencies.


Are you joking? You accuse others of "...emotion-driven rants, personal smears, and the relegation of their opponents to the void of non-personhood."

Wow. Just wow.




Care to adduce a logically connected argument vis-a-vis any of my arguments or specific claims?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_cwald
_Emeritus
Posts: 4443
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:53 pm

Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _cwald »

You have entire threads here where you go off on "emotional-driven rants" that are pretty well nothing more than "personal smears and relegating your opponents to the void of non-personhood." Sometimes you'll post five, six, seven or more consecutive posts without any kind of response from others at all. You don't seem to notice though that no one is taking you serious during these tirades. That is why I said "wow."
"Jesus gave us the gospel, but Satan invented church. It takes serious evil to formalize faith into something tedious and then pile guilt on anyone who doesn’t participate enthusiastically." - Robert Kirby

Beer makes you feel the way you ought to feel without beer. -- Henry Lawson
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Re: To Droopy: This is how a human should be.

Post by _Droopy »

cwald wrote:You have entire threads here where you go off on "emotional-driven rants" that are pretty well nothing more than "personal smears and relegating your opponents to the void of non-personhood." Sometimes you'll post five, six, seven or more consecutive posts without any kind of response from others at all. You don't seem to notice though that no one is taking you serious during these tirades. That is why I said "wow."



Care to adduce a logically connected argument vis-à-vis any of my arguments or specific claims?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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