DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

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_Tchild
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Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _Tchild »

moksha wrote:It is important to remember that Dr. Peterson had all this fall on him like a ton of bricks and that it takes time to recover from such deep wounds.

Besides, someone is always being admonished at BYU for something.

He was wrong about "losing a testimony at BYU". Everyone knows the sure way to lose a testimony is to be employed at the Church office buildings (COB).

That is how my grandfather awoke out of the fog of Mormonism, which inspired my father and then myself and my brothers.

I owe sooo much to the petty culture and office politics as found at the COB. If all facts and reason can't shake you from your stupor, that place will.
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Tchild wrote:He was wrong about "losing a testimony at BYU". Everyone knows the sure way to lose a testimony is to be employed at the Church office buildings (COB).

That is how my grandfather awoke out of the fog of Mormonism, which inspired my father and then myself and my brothers.

I owe sooo much to the petty culture and office politics as found at the COB. If all facts and reason can't shake you from your stupor, that place will.


I've heard that not having a testimony is a prerequisite for working at the COB. That way they don't have to worry about destroying anyone's testimony. :lol:
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_sock puppet
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Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _sock puppet »

moksha wrote:It is important to remember that Dr. Peterson had all this fall on him like a ton of bricks and that it takes time to recover from such deep wounds.

Besides, someone is always being admonished at BYU for something.

Yeah, and perhaps will cut him the same slack he has so charitably shown apostates who had a ton of bricks fall on them that the whole of Mormonism is a sham and a scam, and that it takes time to recover from such deep wounds.

Yeah, that's right, I mean cut him not a friggin' inch as he has not cut ex-mos an inch either.
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

sock puppet wrote:Yeah, and perhaps will cut him the same slack he has so charitably shown apostates who had a ton of bricks fall on them that the whole of Mormonism is a sham and a scam, and that it takes time to recover from such deep wounds.

Yeah, that's right, I mean cut him not a friggin' inch as he has not cut ex-mos an inch either.


But he's the victim, so he doesn't have to cut his persecutors any slack.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_mms
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Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _mms »

In the comments, DCP clarifies the basic intent of his post:

I should think that my basic intent is absolutely obvious: Human institutions can go off the rails if those responsible for them aren’t careful.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

mms wrote:In the comments, DCP clarifies the basic intent of his post:

I should think that my basic intent is absolutely obvious: Human institutions can go off the rails if those responsible for them aren’t careful.


It's not "absolutely obvious," and he's treading on thin ice. Think about it: is he saying that the Lord's University is a "human institution"? Is he suggesting that Church membership can be exterminated "in a generation" because Mormonism is a "human institution"? He's probably covering his tracks with this comment because there is an intra-departmental political subtext to all of this.

See: DCP actually isn't very well-liked by some of the more orthodox or "Chapel" people over in the Religious Education department. People like Prof. P., Hamblin, etc. are seen as being "too liberal"--as having more faith in the world of scholarship than in the Mantle of the Priesthood. And it's not hard for me to sympathize with DCP on this to a certain extent: if you are working at a university, it's understandable that you would feel strongly about knowledge, education, and scholarship. Per what happened with David Bokovoy, (and David Wright, and Mike Quinn, etc., etc., etc.) we know that BYU is giving the shaft to people who pursue the "wrong" kind of studies.

The problem is that you can't really have it both ways: you can't simultaneously attack the people who support orthodox Church doctrine and history at the same time that you want to use the tools of contemporary scholarship to do "Mormon Studies" or Mopologetics or whatever else. Prof. P. is stuck either reshaping his notion of scholarship to fit the Church's definition, or he's left doing what he was doing in this blog post: attacking BYU and the LDS Church as "human institutions." It's yet another problem caused by Mormon absolutism: either the Lord approves of His own University, or he has shrugged off His responsibilities such that the whole thing is a "human institution." The other alternative, which is probably exactly the one that DCP supports, is that the Lord really and truly favors the Mopologists, and that the Religious Education people have cut themselves off from the Spirit, and are drifiting towards apostasy. But, obviously, he can't say this, even if it is genuinely what he thinks.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_RayAgostini

Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _RayAgostini »

Doctor Scratch wrote:...Prof. P. is stuck either reshaping his notion of scholarship to fit the Church's definition, or he's left doing what he was doing in this blog post: attacking BYU and the LDS Church as "human institutions."


Was that an "attack", or an observation? The latter seems more likely to me.


Doctor Scratch wrote:It's yet another problem caused by Mormon absolutism: either the Lord approves of His own University, or he has shrugged off His responsibilities such that the whole thing is a "human institution." The other alternative, which is probably exactly the one that DCP supports, is that the Lord really and truly favors the Mopologists, and that the Religious Education people have cut themselves off from the Spirit, and are drifiting towards apostasy. But, obviously, he can't say this, even if it is genuinely what he thinks.


Or maybe the answer to "human institutions", or even ideas within not only BYU, but the Church itself, lies in D&C 1?:

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.
25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;
26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;
27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;
28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.


You seem to be the "moral absolutist", or what you call "Mormon absolutism", by suggesting an either/or situation and projecting that DCP "must choose" between the two.

I would suggest that the lines are not so precisely drawn, or even should be drawn, as you indicate.

As long as you continue to adhere to the term "Mopologists", which is your distinction from "apologists", you seem to be drawing finer lines between what's "acceptable" or "not acceptable", and thus more of an "absolutist" than you suggest DCP is.

Here's the irony: Those who condemn "Mopologists", in reality think that what Mormon "apologists" apologise for is too fanciful, out of date, and irrelevant to "contemporary scholarly discourse" or social mores.

Just read most of the threads on this board for confirmation of that. "Apologists" (as distinct from "Mopologists") are largely held in utter contempt, but as the saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". And that's why "exmos" love "apologists".
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

RayAgostini wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:...Prof. P. is stuck either reshaping his notion of scholarship to fit the Church's definition, or he's left doing what he was doing in this blog post: attacking BYU and the LDS Church as "human institutions."


Was that an "attack", or an observation? The latter seems more likely to me.


You think that DCP "observed" that the LDS Church and/or BYU are "human institutions," as opposed to God's institutions? Okay.



You seem to be the "moral absolutist", or what you call "Mormon absolutism", by suggesting an either/or situation and projecting that DCP "must choose" between the two.


Actually, I offered up three possibilities. But I'm not really the one creating this situation, am I? I'm not the one dictating LDS doctrine or orthodoxy; I'm not overseeing BYU administration and curriculum. I'm not the one lobbing "attack" or "observations" over at whatever people are apparently leading the Lord's University astray. And of course DCP doesn't have to "choose" between anything--he can do whatever he likes. Does that mean that he'll be free of BYU politics, though? Does it mean he'll be free of LDS orthodoxy?

I would suggest that the lines are not so precisely drawn, or even should be drawn, as you indicate.

As long as you continue to adhere to the term "Mopologists", which is your distinction from "apologists", you seem to be drawing finer lines between what's "acceptable" or "not acceptable", and thus more of an "absolutist" than you suggest DCP is.


??? I don't know what you're talking about. I was just "observing" that DCP's post was--politically speaking--probably ill-advised. I mean, what do you want to bet that some of the folks over at Religious Education have interpreted what he said in exactly the ways I specified above?
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_RayAgostini

Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _RayAgostini »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
You think that DCP "observed" that the LDS Church and/or BYU are "human institutions," as opposed to God's institutions? Okay.


Have you ever read Nibley's criticisms of BYU? I'll even provide you with the link: Zeal Without Knowledge (PDF)

Get back to me on that one. But was it "either/or" for Nibley?


Doctor Scratch wrote: Does it mean he'll be free of LDS orthodoxy?


Which you no doubt think is a bad thing ("LDS orthodoxy"). It's just that you loathe "Mopologists" more than you loathe "LDS orthodoxy", which is precisely the point I made in my previous post.

Doctor Scratch wrote:??? I don't know what you're talking about. I was just "observing" that DCP's post was--politically speaking--probably ill-advised. I mean, what do you want to bet that some of the folks over at Religious Education have interpreted what he said in exactly the ways I specified above?


I don't "bet" where evidence can be provided. And that's your problem, Scratch; you are more than willing to read minds, motives, or think that you can.
_Droopy
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Re: DCP 'admonishes' BYU in his blog

Post by _Droopy »

Blixa wrote:
And the quote from Brother Holland? You've got to be kidding me. The Church is a lot stronger than that, or at least its membership is.



I think this, coming from a cultural Marxist who's intellectual life's work and entire belief system is grounded and invested in, not only the extinction of the Church and of religion qua religion, but of western civilization in depth relative to its classical liberal and Judeo-Christian foundations, is a bit disingenuous (kudos to the Church's "strength"), to say the least.

Once the constitution, limited, constitutional government, federalism, the 10th Amendment, and free-market economic relations are finally crushed and the progressive paradigm much more fully implemented, the Church and its remaining faithful Saints will, at that point, have to separate themselves fully from the wicked, physically enter and gather within Zion communities, and, in essence, secede from the disintegrating secular culture around them.

Holland is correct, on many counts. This last election has unambiguously demonstrated the truth that it only takes a generation to snuff out the light of liberty and limited, agency-based constitutional government for an entire society once grounded in liberal democratic principles, and the same is true for the Church. The Book of Mormon attests to the rapidity with which a culture can deteriorate, the Church fray and weaken, the prophets be "cast out" from among a people, and civilization unravel.

Most importantly, Holland did not say "the Saints" but only "the Church," the institutional vehicle or temporal means by which the Church grows, the gospel is spread, and the members gather in a community of Saints for these purposes.

Many faithful Saints would remain (and a fundamental doctrine of the Church is, after all, that there will never be another total apostasy before the second coming of the Savior - large, and perhaps even substantial, but not total) even if the institutional Church were to disintegrate due to large-scale personal apostasy and apathy (note: Holland was not claiming that this was, indeed in our future, only that there is nothing preventing this from happening if a large enough cohort of the LDS membership were to choose this path).


Brother Christensen said another thing which has impressed me for these many years and which I share with you this morning. It is the simple suggestion—in light of our schools and Education Week and why you're here and what it means to be a parent or a child in this Church—a simple reminder that this Church is always only one generation away from extinction. That does not change however many decades old we are now. It was true in 1840, it was true in 1891, and is true in 1981. We are always just one generation away from extinction. All we would have to do, I assume, to destroy this work is stop teaching our children for one generation. Just everybody stop, close the books, seal up your heart, keep your mouth shut, and don't bear a testimony. In one generation it would be 1820 all over again. We could hunt around and find somebody to go out and pray in a grove of trees. With the blessings of the Lord, we could get six people together to organize a church. We could hand Samuel Smith a Book of Mormon and say, "Go knock on the door and see if we can start somewhere." That could happen. It won't happen. It mustn't happen. It won't happen in 1981 or 1991, but it could if we ceased to accept the obligation upon us, always upon those who have known and believed the truth, to teach it, especially to their children. I am not minimizing other help. We think even BYU can help. But while there are other weighty matters in the kingdom for the disciples, parents and guardians must not wait.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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