Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Chap »

Tobin wrote:As I've stated already, in QM things get wierd and there is a chance a dog will die instead.


Nope. As pointed out above, the 'Schrödinger's cat' thought experiment Brad is talking about does not involve a dog. Only a cat is at risk. Ignorance is a terrible scourge.

And it's "weird" by the way.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Tobin wrote:
As I've stated already, in QM things get wierd and there is a chance a dog will die instead. That is a possibility in QM. And I agree, there isn't a way in classical physics for that to happen because it is based on a convention of simple causation nor is there a way to express that. Also, as I pointed out to Gadianton too, sometimes it is necessary to represent particles as moving backwards as in time to resolve certain difficulties. This is as if a ball moved up an inclined plane instead of down it in the macro universe. Again, there is no concept of this nor is it presently acceptable in classic physics.


Weird? Yes. Anything goes? I don't think so. The mere fact that an event happens at random does not, in and of itself, change the nature of cause and effect. In other words, the detection of the particle doesn't cause it to be emitted in the first place.

Is it necessary to represent the particles moving back in time, or is it mathematically equivalent? I understand that interactions between certain particles can be mathematically expressed as different particles interacting with time flowing in reverse. But is it necessary that they actually do so?

I don't think the ball rolling up fits as an analogy. In that example, only the flow of time is reversed. In the equations, the particles themselves have to change, don't they?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Tobin »

Tobin wrote:As I've stated already, in QM things get wierd and there is a chance a dog will die instead. That is a possibility in QM. And I agree, there isn't a way in classical physics for that to happen because it is based on a convention of simple causation nor is there a way to express that. Also, as I pointed out to Gadianton too, sometimes it is necessary to represent particles as moving backwards as in time to resolve certain difficulties. This is as if a ball moved up an inclined plane instead of down it in the macro universe. Again, there is no concept of this nor is it presently acceptable in classic physics.


Brad Hudson wrote:Weird? Yes. Anything goes? I don't think so. The mere fact that an event happens at random does not, in and of itself, change the nature of cause and effect. In other words, the detection of the particle doesn't cause it to be emitted in the first place.
Well, when you can explain the paradoxes in a exact manner and why they occur, let me know. Until then, I'll maintain that it seems that way and it seems that QM is governed by probabilitiy and not simple cause and effect as you and others protest it must be.

Brad Hudson wrote:Is it necessary to represent the particles moving back in time, or is it mathematically equivalent? I understand that interactions between certain particles can be mathematically expressed as different particles interacting with time flowing in reverse. But is it necessary that they actually do so?
Can you come up with suitable alternative explanation instead?

Brad Hudson wrote:I don't think the ball rolling up fits as an analogy. In that example, only the flow of time is reversed. In the equations, the particles themselves have to change, don't they?
Um, no. An electron moving backwards in time is what a positron is often viewed as. I think my analogy is apt in this case.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Tobin, I can understand from the course of the conversation why you might think I'm trying to get up your nose about this. I'm not. I'm simply having a heckuva time understanding what you are saying.

Obviously the concept of "cause and effect" is not straightforward, because you're modifying it with the word "simple." That is what lead me to wonder whether you and Gadianton were talking about same thing.

Let me go back to the cat and slot machine example. (the cat dies when three lemons show up on the machine). Is the relationship between the slot machine and the cat dying one of "simple cause and effect"?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Tobin »

Brad Hudson wrote:Tobin, I can understand from the course of the conversation why you might think I'm trying to get up your nose about this. I'm not. I'm simply having a heckuva time understanding what you are saying.

Obviously the concept of "cause and effect" is not straightforward, because you're modifying it with the word "simple." That is what lead me to wonder whether you and Gadianton were talking about same thing.

Let me go back to the cat and slot machine example. (the cat dies when three lemons show up on the machine). Is the relationship between the slot machine and the cat dying one of "simple cause and effect"?


Everything in classical physics is governed by cause and effect. Depending on how you throw the dice, where it lands and the type of surface and so on, you should be able to calculate and predict the results 100% of the time. Or if you put that cat in a box with radioactive material, it will die 100% of the time. As far as I know, this is the essence of causation. What I'm simply saying that in QM, that is not the case. There is no result you can guarantee will happen based on a set of actions. Results may vary or not occur at all and weird things may occur as well that wouldn't make sense if applied to the macro universe as we currently understand it. I think I've given plenty of examples of this and I don't believe I"m misrepresenting QM in the slightest by stating that.

I just don't buy QM is governed by cause and effect period. It is governed by probabilities and likelihoods, excluding the weird stuff which makes it truly interesting. Simply stated, cause and effect are a bad way to approach QM and I think most physicists would agree with that and we need to be more sophisticated about how we view that world.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Ahh, I think I'm getting it better. Are you saying that, in realm of classical physics, there is no such thing as random? In other words, if you had sufficient information, you could predict the outcome of the slot machine every time I pulled the handle?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Tobin
_Emeritus
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:01 pm

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Tobin »

Brad Hudson wrote:Ahh, I think I'm getting it better. Are you saying that, in realm of classical physics, there is no such thing as random? In other words, if you had sufficient information, you could predict the outcome of the slot machine every time I pulled the handle?


Yes.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Tobin wrote:
Brad Hudson wrote:Ahh, I think I'm getting it better. Are you saying that, in realm of classical physics, there is no such thing as random? In other words, if you had sufficient information, you could predict the outcome of the slot machine every time I pulled the handle?


Yes.


Thanks, I understand your position lots better now. :smile:
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
_Emeritus
Posts: 10274
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:37 pm

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Regarding the electron/positron thing, I dug up Feynman's Nobel lecture. He expresses what I was trying to say much better:

As a by-product of this same view, I received a telephone call one day at the graduate college at Princeton from Professor Wheeler, in which he said, "Feynman, I know why all electrons have the same charge and the same mass" "Why?" "Because, they are all the same electron!" And, then he explained on the telephone, "suppose that the world lines which we were ordinarily considering before in time and space - instead of only going up in time were a tremendous knot, and then, when we cut through the knot, by the plane corresponding to a fixed time, we would see many, many world lines and that would represent many electrons, except for one thing. If in one section this is an ordinary electron world line, in the section in which it reversed itself and is coming back from the future we have the wrong sign to the proper time - to the proper four velocities - and that's equivalent to changing the sign of the charge, and, therefore, that part of a path would act like a positron." "But, Professor", I said, "there aren't as many positrons as electrons." "Well, maybe they are hidden in the protons or something", he said. I did not take the idea that all the electrons were the same one from him as seriously as I took the observation that positrons could simply be represented as electrons going from the future to the past in a back section of their world lines. That, I stole!

To summarize, when I was done with this, as a physicist I had gained two things. One, I knew many different ways of formulating classical electrodynamics, with many different mathematical forms. I got to know how to express the subject every which way. Second, I had a point of view - the overall space-time point of view - and a disrespect for the Hamiltonian method of describing physics.

I would like to interrupt here to make a remark. The fact that electrodynamics can be written in so many ways - the differential equations of Maxwell, various minimum principles with fields, minimum principles without fields, all different kinds of ways, was something I knew, but I have never understood. It always seems odd to me that the fundamental laws of physics, when discovered, can appear in so many different forms that are not apparently identical at first, but, with a little mathematical fiddling you can show the relationship. An example of that is the Schrödinger equation and the Heisenberg formulation of quantum mechanics. I don't know why this is - it remains a mystery, but it was something I learned from experience. There is always another way to say the same thing that doesn't look at all like the way you said it before. I don't know what the reason for this is. I think it is somehow a representation of the simplicity of nature. A thing like the inverse square law is just right to be represented by the solution of Poisson's equation, which, therefore, is a very different way to say the same thing that doesn't look at all like the way you said it before. I don't know what it means, that nature chooses these curious forms, but maybe that is a way of defining simplicity. Perhaps a thing is simple if you can describe it fully in several different ways without immediately knowing that you are describing the same thing.


...

This completes the story of the development of the space-time view of quantum electrodynamics. I wonder if anything can be learned from it. I doubt it. It is most striking that most of the ideas developed in the course of this research were not ultimately used in the final result. For example, the half-advanced and half-retarded potential was not finally used, the action expression (1) was not used, the idea that charges do not act on themselves was abandoned. The path-integral formulation of quantum mechanics was useful for guessing at final expressions and at formulating the general theory of electrodynamics in new ways - although, strictly it was not absolutely necessary. The same goes for the idea of the positron being a backward moving electron, it was very convenient, but not strictly necessary for the theory because it is exactly equivalent to the negative energy sea point of view.

We are struck by the very large number of different physical viewpoints and widely different mathematical formulations that are all equivalent to one another. The method used here, of reasoning in physical terms, therefore, appears to be extremely inefficient. On looking back over the work, I can only feel a kind of regret for the enormous amount of physical reasoning and mathematically re-expression which ends by merely re-expressing what was previously known, although in a form which is much more efficient for the calculation of specific problems. Would it not have been much easier to simply work entirely in the mathematical framework to elaborate a more efficient expression? This would certainly seem to be the case, but it must be remarked that although the problem actually solved was only such a reformulation, the problem originally tackled was the (possibly still unsolved) problem of avoidance of the infinities of the usual theory. Therefore, a new theory was sought, not just a modification of the old. Although the quest was unsuccessful, we should look at the question of the value of physical ideas in developing a new theory.

Many different physical ideas can describe the same physical reality. Thus, classical electrodynamics can be described by a field view, or an action at a distance view, etc. Originally, Maxwell filled space with idler wheels, and Faraday with fields lines, but somehow the Maxwell equations themselves are pristine and independent of the elaboration of words attempting a physical description. The only true physical description is that describing the experimental meaning of the quantities in the equation - or better, the way the equations are to be used in describing experimental observations. This being the case perhaps the best way to proceed is to try to guess equations, and disregard physical models or descriptions. For example, McCullough guessed the correct equations for light propagation in a crystal long before his colleagues using elastic models could make head or tail of the phenomena, or again, Dirac obtained his equation for the description of the electron by an almost purely mathematical proposition. A simple physical view by which all the contents of this equation can be seen is still lacking.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Philo Sofee
_Emeritus
Posts: 6660
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:04 am

Re: Instantaneous long-distance travel of LDS gods

Post by _Philo Sofee »

DrW wrote:Tobin,

You should be thanking Gadianton about now. He has worked very hard to help you understand some very basic science. He has done an excellent job. And I think you are making progress as well. Not far to go from here.


Actually Tobin is simply lightyears away from understanding. I just finished reading Krauss, "A Universe From Nothing," a VERY necessary read for the very most updated current understanding of the Cosmos. A MUST read, assuming we are serious in trying to understand our home here in the universe.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
Post Reply