The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _Res Ipsa »

cinepro wrote:
Brad Hudson wrote:Do you think this is a big business v. small business issue? it seems to me that, in small businesses, there is a common interest between employer and employee in long-term growth and success. But, at some point, we enter the realm of the mergers and acquisitions and leveraged buy out and golden parachutes, where the self interest of the employer and employee are likely to diverge and become in conflict.


I don't think it's big vs. small. And I don't think it's always management that lose direction. It's just as possible that a union will negotiate for deals that work against the health of the company, and for employees to act in ways that work against the health of the company.

Certainly, everyone has to take care of themselves, but they also have to keep the big picture in mind.


Good point on the unions. I should have included that as a parallel to the growth on the management side.
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_Analytics
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _Analytics »

Droopy wrote:....and as inflation continues to debase the currency and curtail investment...


Sincere question Droopy. Give that the economic philosophy I subscribe to (which I refer to as MIT economics, and which you refer to as Marxian) is the polar opposite of yours, it shouldn't be surprising that we disagree about most things. But I'm wondering why you think inflation would "curtain investment."

From my point of view, if a corporation is sitting on a few billion in cash right now, and the buying power of these billions is being erroded by inflation (currently at 2.2%--the horror!), why does inflation curtain investment? Mainstream economics says that if cash is losing value, companies will have huge incentives to invest it in productive, inflation-proof things, such as new factories, R&D, etc. Yet you claim that inflation makes them not want to invest? How so?
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_subgenius
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _subgenius »

Eric wrote:Just to be clear, the reason for the strike is quite understandable:

yes, to respond to your employer as he enter into bankruptcy, closes several plants and lays off fellow workers - so that your employer can continue to pay you one is quite understandable to refuse to take a cut in pay in order to actually save your own job....
i believe cutting off your nose to spite your own face is not a good example of "understandable"


Eric wrote:Good for them.

yes, good for them - those idiots should not be handling food in the first place..
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_Droopy
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _Droopy »

In the end, it is all about salvaging their well refuted Right Wing doctrines which attack the working class and worship the American corporate empire.


Stock up on tin foil now, Kevin. Marxism was constructed on a tin foil foundation, a vast conspiratorial theory of inevitable, historical class antagonism between a mythical capitalist class - heartless, cruel, and motivated by "greed" - and a mythologized proletarian "working class" - innocent, pure, and sainted by their poverty, innately opposed to each other's interests and mediated by a deterministic, Hegelian dialectical conception of an inevitable and predictable unfolding of history as a phased development of the class struggle.

That none of this gnostic religious mythology remotely resembles history is important because of the degree to which it is still believed and the degree to which its tenets can be compared to known history and fact. No one but the Left and the Democratic party are against the "working class" (an obsolete concept, but still part of the ideology), and the Left itself is now perhaps the greatest purveyor of crony capitalism and outright corporatism in the modern western world.

Indeed, the modern Democratic party is, in essence, one gigantic brothel for corporate and individual rent-seekers.

And I love the way Droopy pretends he suddenly gives a flying damn about the families of these employees.


I love the way you pretend to actually care about them yourself, and the way you pretend to pretend that you have any reason to believe that I don't. I can't think of anything I've ever said, anywhere, ever, that would lead anyone to believe otherwise.

Not anyone who was intellectually honest and an honest broker in the marketplace of ideas.

I linked to essays which clearly explained the core reasons for the destruction of the company. Lower demand was among the contributing factors, but no one with any inside knowledge of the company has said that this was in any sense a danger to the company's continuance. That was provided by an unsustainable pension liability, small profit margins (traditional in that business), and a massive strike and demands that the union would not see economic reason on, that took the company over the edge.

Move along past Mr. Graham...nothing to see here.
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_Gadianton
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _Gadianton »

Droopy wrote:To all those union members who supported the destruction of their own jobs and the jobs of those among them who wanted to take the necessary concessions for the time being and continue to work, your wives and children have my condolences and sympathy - but not you, and you are accountable for the suffering and deprivations you, yourselves, have no brought upon their heads.


Actually, Droopy is arguing again for a socialist ideal rather than a market ideal, altruism, which was invented by the leftist Aguste Comte. What Droopy wants is for the employees of Hostess to realize it's in the best interest of the company's survival to pay them less, bow their heads, and accept the lower pay for themselves, for the greater good of their peers and the company. The employees, however, acted just as market economics expects. They felt the gamble to retain their pay was worth the risk, they took it, and they happened to lose, in this case. Not every venture works out. Collusion is a natural extension of self-interest. Nowhere that I am aware of in free-market literature are people taught to be selfless and make decisions for the benefit of the group. If such a thing were realizable, if folks would only take the counsel of Droopy here to heart, then socialism would work just fine. I tell people I work with all the time that if they think they're underpaid and want more money, they need to either quit and work somewhere else, or at least get an offer letter from another company and accept a counter-offer. People don't like to do this because there is risk involved. Success, of course, means the company will be that much worse off than they were before.

Believing unions don't work is one thing, but outrage against union members for exploiting poor government policy and acting in their own self-interest, rather than for the benefit of the whole, is another, and betrays a hidden love for leftism. In this case, Droopy is once again displaying his capacity to think like a liberal.
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _Droopy »

Sincere question Droopy. Give that the economic philosophy I subscribe to (which I refer to as MIT economics, and which you refer to as Marxian) is the polar opposite of yours, it shouldn't be surprising that we disagree about most things. But I'm wondering why you think inflation would "curtain investment."


Because inflation, at least at substantial levels, makes the money a creditor receives in the future worth less than the money he initially invested. The longer the time window from initial investment to the recouping of the principle and interest, the less each new dollar is worth. Short term, "get rich quick" investments (and associated risks) would look more appetizing in a high inflation environment.
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_Gadianton
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _Gadianton »

...not sure I follow...

When the fed lowers interest rates, the stock market goes up, or down? (ceteris paribus)

During the Volcker recession, Paul Volcker was a) decreasing the value of money, inflation or b) increasing the value of money, deflation?
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _Droopy »

Actually, Droopy is arguing again for a socialist ideal rather than a market ideal, altruism, which was invented by the leftist Aguste Comte.


Pull the lever, Gad. Do you see cherries? Oranges? Lemons?

What Droopy wants is for the employees of Hostess to realize it's in the best interest of the company's survival to pay them less, bow their heads, and accept the lower pay for themselves, for the greater good of their peers and the company.


One might expect them to come to terms with economic reality, primarily for their own good and for the greater good of their wives and children. The greater good of the company and their fellow employees is then only the inevitable consequence or derivative effect of that perspective and choice.

The employees, however, acted just as market economics expects. They felt the gamble to retain their pay was worth the risk, they took it, and they happened to lose, in this case.


1. Free market economic choices, calculations, and decisions do not involve gambling. They do involve risk, but this is not "gambling."

2. Unionism, and especially that of the closed shop variety, is no longer fully free market in the sense that, as we see here, union legal privileges and its perception (and union member's perception) of its state enforced powers of intimidation and coercion distort decision-making and perception of relative risk to the point that, again as we see here, a union and a relatively small number of its members can destroy what they were trying to save.

The market could not bear the wages and benefits being paid and the future liabilities being created. Economic reality collided with yet another union gravy train, and economic reality won.

Not every venture works out. Collusion is a natural extension of self-interest. Nowhere that I am aware of in free-market literature are people taught to be selfless and make decisions for the benefit of the group. If such a thing were realizable, if folks would only take the counsel of Droopy here to heart, then socialism would work just fine.


1. Collusion is precisely what a truly rule of law-based free market order combined with strictly limited government tends to discourage (whether monopolies, union power, syndicalist cabals, and politically connected rent seeking).

2.
Nowhere that I am aware of in free-market literature are people taught to be selfless and make decisions for the benefit of the group.


They don't need to. The vast majority of decisions made in a truly free market environment must be made within the context of serving one's fellow human beings as best they can be served in an open, dynamic, creative, competitive environment. It cannot be the case that "the benefit of the group" (whatever that is) will not be realized, and at lower prices, higher quality, and wider variety, under such circumstances.

Socialism cannot work, period, due to its violations of the basic laws of economics and of the core elements of human nature. Nothing whatsoever, no possible set of conditions, save perhaps the invasion of the country by a vast military force requiring deep regimentation of economic life for naked survival, can make socialism "work."

I tell people I work with all the time that if they think they're underpaid and want more money, they need to either quit and work somewhere else, or at least get an offer letter from another company and accept a counter-offer. People don't like to do this because there is risk involved. Success, of course, means the company will be that much worse off than they were before.


For a brief period. Then they will hire someone else, and be as well off than they were before, or perhaps better (if the employee is actually a better employee).

Believing unions don't work is one thing, but outrage against union members for exploiting poor government policy and acting in their own self-interest, rather than for the benefit of the whole, is another, and betrays a hidden love for leftism. In this case, Droopy is once again displaying his capacity to think like a liberal.


Gad, this particular tactic of yours - one of your odder argument strategies - has been a good laugh, but its about over now. I'm beginning now to suspect that you understand neither conservatism or the Left. Unionism is, and always has been, a collectivist form of human relations. Since the 1930s, it has been progressively driven, not by market considerations, but by relative perceptions of the quantity of gravy that can be funneled into each union member's portfolio of benefits and privileged exemptions and dispensations.

If the members had been market-driven in their assessments, they would have given way to economic realities beyond the ability of their own personal desires and their union's political clout to alter. They did not do so. They chose to defy the market and strike.
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _bcspace »

Just to be clear, the reason for the strike is quite understandable


Used as pawns so a few union fat cats can show some success while their jobs are put up as collateral? Not in any rational sense. I think it's time the union refunded their dues to help pay for unemployment.
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Re: The Rapacious Maw of Unionism Devours its Own Yet Again

Post by _Droopy »

During the Volcker recession...


Yeah...uh huh...

Volcker's policies were a major element in teh Reagan boom - the longest sustained peacetime economic expansion in American history at the time - of 1983 - 1990.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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